question Private HGV Tacho Requirements?

[Bran D]

The last few times I took my Foden for its MOT the testers would remind me to keep looking at the Vosa website as the rules were changing.

As far as I am concerned I will definately be using a tacho, and will keep a hard copy diary with a copy of my hours from my day job in it.

Luckily I dont work more than 44 hrs on average, and the shows I goto are very local, so I should be ok.

I discused fitting and calibrating the tacho with my local authorised tacho centre, they wanted to fit a digital tacho, costing over £1200 ! I spoke to vosa who assure me I can use an analogue one, much cheaper and easier to keep a copy of my hours!

Looking at operating licences, for private use you dont need an operating license, but reading vosas documents, they dont list private use as an exemption. I think this is because they refer to operating licenses for commercial carriage of goods only.

I would still like to see it in black and white though.

[Marmite!!]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf

 

Here's one Exemption, there are others..

 

Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes used for the non-commercial carriage of goods

Examples could include a person moving house and goods carried by a non-profit making group or registered charity.

[Brooky]

Agreed

But for vehicles NOT Exceeding 7.5tonnes

these would not be classed as Private Heavy Goods (exceeding 7.5 then PHGV)

[andym]

Again from a road safety perspective, one of the reasons the tacho was introduced, it would make sense to ensure that everybody driving an "in scope" vehicle sticks to the same rules

 

That of course is the other side of the coin. Whilst some of the legislation designed to stamp out cowboy hauliers makes no sense for MVs, if an HGV crashes into a bus full of school children because the driver was asleep they aren't going to care if it was privately owned or not - the end result will be the same.

 

Andy

[Brooky]

Agreed

how ever the "solution" has to be generic

Therefore any vehicle used for the carriage of goods whatever that looks like be it MV or preserved HGVis included in the rules

 

Dont forget the 25 year rolling exemption for "Historic Vehicles"

 

Best of a bad job really, quick fix buy an MV over 25 years old (built after 1985) That surely covers most stuff we run?

[Stone]

Still trying to work out horses as pets, that's a good one

 

I *think* we're ok here - we drive the Bedford (taxed as Private HGV) with a fitted box on the back full of test gear. Although it's owned by the company and not being used for carriage of goods, as I understand it we would need a tachograph. Luckily we fit into exemption 7 as it's built for the detection of radio or television transmitters or receivers...

 

If we had a workshop body on a <7.5t vehicle and only had work-related kit in it, does that make it fit in exemption 4? I guess that's the box cherry-pickers and tree surgery Unimogs would go in too...

 

Stone

[Marmite!!]

From what I've read it appears that anyone using there vehicle for private use in the UK are exempt from drivers hours rules

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf Page 24

 

 

GB domestic rules

 

SECTION 3: GB domestic rules

The GB domestic rules, as contained in the Transport Act 1968, apply to most goods vehicles that are exempt from the EU rules. Separate rules apply to Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

 

Domestic rules exemptions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following groups are exempt from the domestic drivers’ hours rules:

 

• drivers of vehicles used by the Armed Forces, the police and fire brigade;
• drivers who always drive off the public road system; and
  
• private driving, i.e. not in connection with a job or in any way to earn a living.
  

[antarmike]

Still trying to work out horses as pets, that's a good one

 

I *think* we're ok here - we drive the Bedford (taxed as Private HGV) with a fitted box on the back full of test gear. Although it's owned by the company and not being used for carriage of goods, as I understand it we would need a tachograph. Luckily we fit into exemption 7 as it's built for the detection of radio or television transmitters or receivers...

Stone

 

I think you will find that exemption relates to Television detector vans and the like used for catching evaders of Television licence payment. And vehicle trying to trace un-licenced transmission, amatuer radio people transmitting on un-authorised frequencies, illegal pirate radio stations, radios being used to transmit on, or recieve Police message, for the purposes of carrying out a crime, with a view to closing them down and prosecuting the operators.

 

You used to need a licence to have a radio receiver, that is why they are also mentioned. I think to call your vehicle a "television Detector van" is a bit far fetched....

Edited October 7, 2010 by antarmike

[Brooky]

From what I've read it appears that anyone using there vehicle for private use in the UK are exempt from drivers hours rules

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf Page 24

 

 

GB domestic rules

 

SECTION 3: GB domestic rules

The GB domestic rules, as contained in the Transport Act 1968, apply to most goods vehicles that are exempt from the EU rules. Separate rules apply to Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

 

Domestic rules exemptions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following groups are exempt from the domestic drivers’ hours rules:

 

• drivers of vehicles used by the Armed Forces, the police and fire brigade;

• drivers who always drive off the public road system; and

• private driving, i.e. not in connection with a job or in any way to earn a living.

 

 

Fair comment...................missed that one had been a long day and I dont usually get involved with domestic rules as part of the day job

I still however think that if the vehicle is over 3.5 tonnes then EU rather than domestic rules apply, back to this phrase carrige by road

Edited October 7, 2010 by Brooky

[Brooky]

I think you will find that exemption relates to Television detector vans and the like used for catching evaders of Television licence payment. And vehicle trying to face un-licenced transmission, amatuer radio people transmitting on un-authorised frequencies, illegal pirate radio stations, adios being used to transmit on, or recieve Police messages, with a view to closing them down and prosecuting the operators.

 

You used to need a licence to have a radio receiver, that is why they are also mentioned. I think to call your vehicle a "television Detector van" is a bit far fetched....

 

 

Not quite an exemption but a derogation to the regulation It states

"Vehicles used in connection with sewarage,flood protection,water,gas,and electricity maintenance services road maintenance or control,door to door household refuse collection or disposal,telegraph or telephone services, radio or television broadcasting and the detection of readio or televisiontransmitters or receivers"

Doesnt mention evasion of licence fees only the detection

[antarmike]

Not quite an exemption but a derogation to the regulation It states

"Vehicles used in connection with sewarage,flood protection,water,gas,and electricity maintenance services road maintenance or control,door to door household refuse collection or disposal,telegraph or telephone services, radio or television broadcasting and the detection of readio or televisiontransmitters or receivers"

Doesnt mention evasion of licence fees only the detection

 

Agreed it doesn't mention Evasion, but surely this is clearly the group of vehciles to which this applies..

 

I am trying to be helpful, if the derogation is for a particular type of vehicle, and if a person believes his vehicle fits that type, but it doesn't then it is helpful to point out what the intended group or type is. It uses the word detection, not receiving. surely it must be shown that a vehicle is equipped to detect, rather than to receive....

 

I would suggest the vehicle would need Radio Direction Finding equipment, not test gear to fulfil this purpose.

 

Also the derogation is for the Current use, not the pupose for which the vehicle was originally used, or how it has been fitted out, or what equipment it carries,. To use this derogation the operator would have to show his use of the vehicle at the time, was in connection with the detection of radio transmitters (ie finding their location) , not driving to a show, to be parked up in a line...

 

Bearing in mind this is military equipment, and it is illegal to monitor Military radio traffic, and if the gear is being used to listen to Military traffic, it opens up another can of worms....

.

Edited October 7, 2010 by antarmike

[andym]

From what I've read it appears that anyone using there vehicle for private use in the UK are exempt from drivers hours rules

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf Page 24

 

 

GB domestic rules

 

SECTION 3: GB domestic rules

The GB domestic rules, as contained in the Transport Act 1968, apply to most goods vehicles that are exempt from the EU rules. Separate rules apply to Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

 

Domestic rules exemptions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following groups are exempt from the domestic drivers’ hours rules:

 

• drivers of vehicles used by the Armed Forces, the police and fire brigade;

• drivers who always drive off the public road system; and

• private driving, i.e. not in connection with a job or in any way to earn a living.

 

Surely the critical phrase here is "apply to most goods vehicles that are exempt from the EU rules". So firstly the vehicle must be such that EU rules don't apply, THEN the domestic rules apply, which are waived for private use?

 

Andy

[Tony B]

If the wording in the act says' Detection of radio transmissions' that's it! Bare in mind the law works on very tight definitions of words. Thats why Legal Draftstmen are paid a fortune. As an example with the horse boxes, a private horse owner can drive the box with the horse in as much as they like. A paid groom would be under hours. Moviong a horse, is part of eraning your living..

Edited October 7, 2010 by Tony B

[Brooky]

I am now getting very confused!!!!

 

I have had a long conversation with the FTA legal help desk and I think this is how it all fits together

The EU Tachograoh rules were changed in 2007, the part of this change that most people in the industry will know about was the change around how the 45minute break could be split.

However another major change was the wording "Carriage of Goods by Road" (as previously discussed.)

 

So the descion process for whether a vehicle is expected to comply with tacho/drivers hours rules is

1. Is it used for carriage of goods by road (laden or unladen)

2. is it over 3.5 tonnes

 

If the answer to the above is yes, then drivers hours and record keeping apply UNLESS an exemption or derogation exists (our main get out here is 25 years)

Do not confuse this with taxation class

 

Domestic regulations are not applicable

 

When this change to the law was introduced there were a great deal of LGV horse boxes (used privately) who fell foul of the regs.

 

On another point the radio detection post DID refer to a vehicle being used commercially and not as a toy, therefore the derogation would apply

[Marmite!!]

I've emailed VOSA for an answer..

[Brooky]

Waiting with baited breath!!!

[Marmite!!]

Ok just got off the phone to VOSA, phoned the National office & they put me in touch with the regional office in Purfleet, they gave me a mobile number of one of their examiners, phoned her & she passed me on to their top man who just happened to with her..

 

I asked..

 

"I've got a PHGV I use for private use, do I need a tacho?"

 

Vosa "What weight?"

 

"6.5t"

 

Vosa "Absolutely not up to 7.5t"

 

Job done as far as I'm concerned.

[Brooky]

Ok just got off the phone to VOSA, phoned the National office & they put me in touch with the regional office in Purfleet, they gave me a mobile number of one of their examiners, phoned her & she passed me on to their top man who just happened to with her..

 

I asked..

 

"I've got a PHGV I use for private use, do I need a tacho?"

 

Vosa "What weight?"

 

"6.5t"

 

Vosa "Absolutely not up to 7.5t"

 

Job done as far as I'm concerned.

 

Over 7.5tonne then tacho required (The vehicle is then an LGV)

[Marmite!!]

(The vehicle is then an LGV)

NO it's a PHGV

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012527

 

Private HGV (exceeding 3,500kg revenue weight) (TC10)

 

 

The tax classes are in post #12

 

Think that puts that one to bed...

Edited October 7, 2010 by Marmite!!

[Brooky]

LGV is a definition...............Large Goods Vehicle good vehicle Over 3.5tonne (vocational licence required to drive it (CAT C1 minimum under aquired rights or CAT C if car test taken after 1997)

 

PHGV is a taxation class not a definition. A 44tonne artic can be taxed as PHGV

 

I still think the info you received from VOSA was incorrect and that a vehicle of 6.5 tonne (whatever it is taxed as) is an LGV (definition) and would come under EU drivers hours rule (unless there was an exemtion or derogation) and would require a vocational licence to drive it if it was manufactured before 1st January 1960 (used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer.)

 

Did you ask for the confirmation of the conversation with VOSA in writing???

[Marmite!!]

LGV is a definition...............Large Goods Vehicle good vehicle Over 3.5tonne (vocational licence required to drive it (CAT C1 minimum under aquired rights or CAT C if car test taken after 1997)

 

PHGV is a taxation class not a definition. A 44tonne artic can be taxed as PHGV

 

I still think the info you received from VOSA was incorrect and that a vehicle of 6.5 tonne (whatever it is taxed as) is an LGV (definition) and would come under EU drivers hours rule (unless there was an exemtion or derogation) and would require a vocational licence to drive it if it was manufactured before 1st January 1960 (used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer.)

 

Did you ask for the confirmation of the conversation with VOSA in writing???

Doesn't matter what it's taxed as.. if under 7.5t for private use they say no tacho required, & yes if I write into the local office they will give it to me in writting.

[Brooky]

I would suggest then that you get that confirmation in writing from them and

 

a. Post it on here for everybody to use

 

and

 

b. Keep a copy about your person so that if you are ever challenged at the road side you have documentary evidence to support your claim

 

I really doubt that they will commit to anything in writing.........................but I stand to be corrected!

[Brooky]

I completely agree!!!!!

This applies in my day job as well dealing with road transport operations it is a minefield!!!

 

The point is that there cannot and never will be a set of rules for every vehicle and we have to decide what set of rules fit whatever circumstance.

 

The proof of the pudding will be if an individual is prosecuted over a point of law and what the judges descion is for that case, that then provides the precedence.

 

There are a couple of things that do spring to mind though and that is the rules about pre 1960 vehicles and vocational licences and exemptions from testing and plating, as well as vehicles over 25 years old being given exemption from EU drivers hours.

I suppose in the regulation writers eyes they have covered the issues around a very small percentage of vehicles on the road that do not fit into neat boxes

 

I suppose when they were thinking about the regulations then the fact that some individual might want to run an obscure piece of military kit for fun never entered their heads.

 

We are unfortunately where we are and as Mike knows trying to change things is like shoving water uphill

[Jack]

Sorry about the fact that Brooky's post seems out of context...it's because I have temporarly removed Neils posts...........so he can 'modify' it for me :sweat:

 

Neil - I have fired you over a PM.

 

Cheers

 

JB!

[N.O.S.]

Neil - I have fired you over a PM.

 

Cheers

 

JB!

 

 

That's a bit harsh! Couldn't you have given him a final written warning instead?