Light Car Patrol

With a bit of renewed Ford interest on the forum here is a noteworthy Aussi addition.

In August 1916 the 1st Australian Armoured Car Section disembarked in Egypt. The section’s vehicles consisted of two Armoured Cars scratch built on a Mercedes and a Daimler chassis, a Minerva Car used as a ‘Tender’ and a new Hudson Motorcycle and side car combination also mounting a colt MG.

The Section supported British elements against the Senussi and carried out a number of recce tasks etc. however the vehicles were soon found to be unsuitable and they were withdrawn. The Unit was then issued six rather well used Model ‘T’ Fords from British stocks and re-named the No.1. Australian Light Car Patrol. They transferred North in 1917 to join the British Car Patrols supporting the Mounted Divisions in Palestine until peace was declared in 1918. This is a very short introduction to support the following.

I have been corresponding with a chap here in Australia who has an interesting project underway. He is building a replica LCP vehicle on an original Model T Ford engine chassis combination. He has provided the enclosed images for those of you interested in such things. Should be well and truly complete for the Centenary years of WW1 commencing in 2014. The main armament was a .303 Lewis Gun and a de-activated example will be used for display activities. Rod

I have been corresponding with a chap here in Australia who has an interesting project underway. He is building a replica LCP vehicle on an original Model T Ford engine chassis combination. He has provided the enclosed images for those of you interested in such things. Should be well and truly complete for the Centenary years of WW1 commencing in 2014. The main armament was a .303 Lewis Gun and a de-activated example will be used for display activities. Rod

Hi Rod,

This is interesting. Could you please let your friend know that the themes of the Annual Corowa Swim-In & Military Vehicle Gathering for March 2014, will be appropriate for his vehicle. They will be Year of the WW1 vehicle and Year of the Ford. Just to give him a goal to aim for! The venue is Corowa, NSW.

It would be wonderful to gather together a good group of WW1 era military vehicles at the event.

regards, Richard

Nice job!

Another little piece of history with which I was not familiar. The more one learns, the more one realises that there is to know!

Thanks for sharing it with us.

Steve

It is remarkable how much the Ford Model T contributed to the war effort. The only thing I can see that would improve this car is a live Lewis, and then off to eliminate a few jack rabbits, mind you, as dry as it is here, it would be best not to use tracers.

Best

gus

Thank you. I'm sure Jack would appreciate the well wishes and I will point him in the Forum's direction. Following plus the couple of attachments is the latest from him .... enjoy ... Rod

"Last week, with the help of a more talented friend, I completed the opening LH door and the false door outline on the RH side. So I'm about to fit the LH door into the access opening, but will probably have to adjust the door hinge post a trifle. A couple of pictures - one of each side, are attached.

The RH false door is still a flat sheet of tin, so that'll have to be bent mainly front to back, to conform to the radius of the existing wooden frame. Once that's done, it is then a fairly simple matter of welding both the new and old pieces together and the next task will be the painting."

One of the great things about working on a Ford T is that nearly all the parts are available, and do not require the expense and work needed on some of the other restorations, the T project may not be as amazing as the Thornycroft or Dennis restorations, but they do give people with limited resources a chance to make a contribution, and the end result is something that can be taken out on the road and shared with the public with out having to worry about maintenance.

Best

Gus

Well stated Gustaf and a fine job you have done with yours. Richard I have passed on your comments re Corowa. One of the second issue of Fords to the 1st Light Car Patrol in Palestine sported an unofficial badge on the radiator and attached is an image of the replica fabricated by Jack which makes a nice addition to the project. There are a couple of nice images of British Light Car Patrol vehicles mounting 2 Lewis Guns on the AWM web site. Time was 1919 and the Units were used in Egypt to quell the uprising that occurred.

Aleppo is a place in the news in recent times. A very nice Australian LCP Unit photo was taken there at the end of the war which included the above Ford with the radiator badge plus an interesting addition in the form of an Imp. German Loreley staff car captured earlier and used by the Australians until the British Theatre Command decided that it had to remain behind when the Unit returned to Australia. Rod

This is a very interesting project. I suspect that the car may be driven in parades in the future. If so, it is important to realize that the low gear on a Ford T is not very slow, and you can not "slip the clutch" to go slower, or you will wear out the low speed band very fast. It must be driven fully engaged in low to avoid damage. Many people in the US install an auxiliary two speed axle to get a slower speed for parades. I look forward to seeing the completed car.

Best

Gus

It seems the British used at least one standard T car in Hejaz

Here is TE Laurence with one (second from right) demonstrating the shortcomings of using standard, unmodified vehicles in difficult terrain.

Whether this was a mechanical or traction difficulty I do not know.

The difference in performance between the Light Car Patrol vehicles and the standard T must have been substantial.

Not forgetting Ralph Bagnold (founder of LRP/LRDG) who used the Model T in his exploration of the sahara and western desert in the 30s whilst a young R Sigs officer.

Not forgetting Ralph Bagnold (founder of LRP/LRDG) who used the Model T in his exploration of the sahara and western desert in the 30s whilst a young R Sigs officer.

Nope. Bagnold never used Model T Fords in his 1930s desert explorations, they were all Model As. Even the photo captions in some books on the subject erroneously describe them as Model Ts. The Model A is a completely different and much stronger vehicle with a conventional 3-speed gearbox and a 3.2 litre motor of twice the horsepower (except the ones made in England, which were de-rated due to the petrol tax).

The first time Bagnold discovered the correct technique for driving over sand dunes in the Libyan desert (something previously considered impossible) he was driving a Model A truck. In his book he describes his disbelief at being raised up a 300ft high dune "as though on an elevator" after charging the base of it head-on at 40mph. He is fulsome in his praise of the "A" which he considered was by far the best vehicle for desert exploration, having just the right combination of lightness, power, durability and fuel economy. Other desert explorers must have agreed, as they also chose the "A" in preference to any other vehicle. And Bill Kennedy-Shaw in his book on the LRDG refers to the Model A as "the best car Ford ever made" (he was writing in 1943). As the proud owner for 42 years of a Model A Ford pickup truck, I can testify that they have loads of character and are as tough as goats knees.

Certainly nothing "fancy" with these vehicles in Egypt. Caption on the image says it all....enjoy...Rod

Yes, the Model-T or the Model-A could have easily been the first "jeep." I often wonder how things might have been different if Jesse Livingood had either come out with his four wheel drive conversion kit earlier or had done a better job of marketing it.

I do not think the T could have ever been the first jeep, not with out a different transmission and wheel brakes. One of the important features of all the original jeeps (Bantam, Willis and Ford) was the low gearing. The 4 wheel drive on the jeep is not really what gives it the ability to travel where other vehicles can not. It is the short wheel base, narrow tires, flexible frame, low horse power (all of these features shared by the T) but most importantly, low gearing.

In my opinion, if you put a different transmission and wheel brakes on a T, it is no longer a T.

Best

Gus

Gustaf: True, looking at it from a late '30s, early 40s viewpoint. In the '20s, the Model-T was the norm. Also, the Livingoods used a splitter to drop the overall gearing. It did lot's better with that gearing and used as the Light Patrol rigs were used, the 4-wheel drive would have been a big asset. And when you get right down to it, the WWII jeep was not all that low geared. The later civvy jeeps were geared lower with 5.38s in the axles and a 2.4:1 transfer case vs 4.88s and 1.97.

To make myself more clear, the Model-T could have been the "jeep" of the 'teens or 1920s.

Be honest if the T was all you had, you got it where you wanted. And what ever the drive, it did!

I'm the builder of the British Model T light patrol car - thanks to Rod (BSM) for introducing this thread to the HMVF.

I am splitting my effort between this and the other restoration I'm doing, with a small team of helpers - the thread to that one is at

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28539-The-Restoration-of-Austin-Champ-1824

My plan is to have the light patrol car ready for the centenary commemorations of WW1 events, which is only two years away.

I've learnt a great deal about Model Ts in general and also a little about the Light Car Patrols which operated in the Palestine area during WW1. There are quite a few references to their activities in the Australian Official History, eg

He passed Dhaheriye, and was sitting down south of Hebron,

when one afternoon his patrols were startled to see two

cars of the No. 7 Light Car Patrol, under Lieutenant

McKenzie, coming down the road from the north. Besides

a remarkable tale of adventures, McKenzie brought the

astonishing news that Hebron had been evacuated by the

enemy two or three days earlier.

.... and there's a good deal more, though little of practical value to a Model T restorer. As a matter of interest, McKenzie was a New Zealander and he obviously enjoyed his reconnaissance role.

I've done some minor improvements to my T including adding a starter and a solenoid, so the vehicle has been moved a couple or so years into the future, but generally the vehicle will be as it was in 1917.

I'll keep you all up to date with the progress.

Jack

Hey Jack,

Great project, I too was planning on finishing my T ambulance in time for the centenary, but managed to get it done a bit sooner, and it has been a lot of fun. I am looking forward to your project completion.

Hey 4x4founder,

I think that the T was the jeep of the teens and 20s, even with 2 wheel drive, it took people places that they had noever gone before in an auto. and you are right about the gearing, the CJs were much slower, but that was a problem on the highway, as 50mph was a struggle for a CJ and the GPWs and MBs could do over 60mph.

Best

Gus

Bit quiet on the thread so I thought I would add another nice Ford image. Pic is of a couple of Mounted Division, Australian Engineer Signalmen in a Ford "T" on the banks of the Black Sea. Image courtesy University of Newcastle. Rod

G'day Rod,

I've been working on my LH door and finally got it hung today.

Jack

Jack, good to see the next 'bit'. Similar to others on this chapter of HMVF....a labour of love no doubt and looking good. Festive season closing rapidly ... we had a good dose of festive cheer today and another ex Artillery, MT restoration group in Sydney did likewise. This year seems to have slipped by at an increased pace!!!! Rod

The old and new

Ford T?

Battle of Megiddo (1918) Destroyed Turkish transport

Charawacky,

An interesting picture - one I hadn't seen before. The vehicle does seem to be from a Light Car Patrol, but a quick check of the 1st Australian Light Car Patrol's War Diary for that period (Sep-Nov 18) doesn't mention Megiddo, so it may have been a vehicle from another patrol. The fellow next to the Model T does appear to be wearing a slouch hat, though.

There appear to be at least seven men in the shot and a couple of horsemen in the middle distance, so I guess there is more transport out of camera range.

I see the photo appears on Wikipedia, but it's unattributed - do you know where the original came from, or do you happen to have a hi res version ?

Jack

I'm a new HMVF member seeking vehicle, contract or supply specifications or any written British Army specs indicating the color of Ford Model T's to be supplied to British, Australian, or New Zealand forces in Egypt or Palestine during the First World War.

From the book, Light Car Patrols, 1916-1919, Silphium Press, 2014, it's apparent that the first Model T's used by the Light Car Patrols were supplied for other purposes. I can't say for certain but think it's unlikely that the Light Car Patrol staff ever developed any kind of color requirements or specifications. All their modifications to the vehicles were made in mobile Army work shops apparently.

If no Army or AIF specs were developed requesting a different color, then the Ford 'factory' color tan or brown shown in the attached photo of an ambulance probably was supplied.

I've received a reply from the Australian team that recently completed the Model T Light Car Patrol vehicle to the effect that the Leyland Sand Glow paint they selected was the owner's choice.

Any information would be appreciated!

All the best,

Dan Morton

Fur my money the Ford Sand colour is far more authentic than the" Sun Glow" But I think the owner chose it.