Markheliops Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Looking at Milweb today and have spotted an Antar = Price £18000. Got me thinking about prices for MV's. Am I right in thinking that's too much for a vehicle or am I living in the past? Take my Ward La France M1A1. Pretty much original condition, runs OK now, nearly fully kitted out. Now if I were to sell the vehicle I would put it up for sale at around the £8500 mark - or am I vastly under estimating the value of my vehicle. Is a CVRT really worth £25000 when my FV432 will sell for around £7500? Is a Jeep really worth £17000. You see GMC's around the £4000-£5000 range which I think is a lot of truck for not a lot of money. Ferrets, Champs, Bedford’s, Stalwarts all selling for reasonable prices. I know it is said if someone wants a vehicle, they will pay the going rate but I am concerned such high prices for vehicles will eventually do damage to the hobby we all belong - or am I mistaken. Surely at these prices only the privileged few will be able to afford vehicles so eventually, these vehicles will end up unsold and possibly being left to decay. Result - vehicles disappearing from the MV scene. Your thoughts please chaps - Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I think it's like double glazing: people expect to get back some or all of the money they have spent on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 I understand about money spent, etc but take for example CVRT and 432 prices. Why is a CVRT so much more in value than a FV432? Some CVRT's sold are straight from the auctions, nothing done to them and are for sale around the £15000. Now look at a FV432, restored, painted, fully kitted out, etc. Max price is around the £8500 range. So exactly why is the CVRT worth so much more than the FV432? Are they more sought after? Are they easier to look after? Are they more desireable to own? Vehicles are roughly the same size, both tracked, and both armoured. To be honest I would have thought the 432 was worth more as they are multi fuel, tax free (depending on age), less lightly to develope faults and easier to drive. What am I missing here? Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john fox Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I can't speak for an Antar, but in respect of Ferrets I thought part of the reason why their price range has been so "reasonable" for a number of years is supply of unrestored examples and the fact of the large supply of them. This counters the demand side of the equation where they are "desirable" because they are "simple" and a "tank" and small enough to fit a garage. There are still a few project vehicles hitting the market each year and once they are done up and sold in the 4 - 6 K price bracket that's a good profit for a dealer so prices haven't moved very much. Look how long Marcus G has been advertising his for at £6.5k, no rush of buyers at that price cos its not a good comparison with a restored/equipped second hand one from a private seller (assuming you check the seller knew how to, and did, maintain it correctly) The basic rule still applies of course, its worth what the next person is prepared to pay, for example, when I bought my Fox I knew I was paying more than anyone else had done but at the same time I was not prepared to buy the one at a dealer for double what I was told they were "worth". Am I a privileged few - NOPE, did I want the Fox - you bet, so I paid a bit over the going rate to get a good'un. Thats the basis of all inflationary pressures until the current economic crash. Certain vehicles have more "cred" than others in the eyes of the majority at any one moment in time so someone else will always come along to trump the price of those if you wait long enough. That is exactly what the dealer said to me when he refused my 10% below asking price offer on the overpriced Fox. I am no market trader but I thought 10% in folding stuff below asking was a damn good offer. :argh: PS, its still unsold but not yet decaying. :coffee: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Good points John and well presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john fox Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Vehicles are roughly the same size, both tracked, and both armoured. To be honest I would have thought the 432 was worth more as they are multi fuel, tax free (depending on age), less lightly to develope faults and easier to drive. What am I missing here? Markheliops CVRT has all the hallmarks of owning a "tank", 432 is of course armoured and can carry more people so is more fun with mates, but is so slow and lacks the presence of a "tank". Personally speaking I am not sure that the relative difference in running costs between 432 and CVRT is much of a factor comparing a "fast tank" to a "slow box" does that justify double the price? answer - yes patently it does in the current market why did I buy CVRW rather than T? answer - I want to drive "fast" on roads and know nothing about tracked maintenance, whereas CVRW is just a big Ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) I would question your point on the "presence" of a tank John. A 432 coming down the road is an impressive sight and the noise of the Rolls Royce engine is un-mistakeable. CVRT - doesn't make much noise at all and is small in size when compared to an FV 432. Some CVRT have cannon fitted but then take a look at the Abbott. I'm not slagging off CVRT's as they are an impressive vehicle to us in the know. To the public - I would say the 432 has more of a presence of being a tank. If most members of the public were asked what defines a tank, I suspect they would say: It's armoured, slow, big and noisy. Pretty much how I would describe a 432, 434 and an Abbott Markheliops Edited January 16, 2009 by Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 A CVRT is much smaller in my opinion than the FV432 family. Possible to keep it on your drive and with it's high speed and light weight easier to transport or even drive to events. Perhaps being a more modern vehicle they are seen as easier to maintain as well. From my recent observations though FV433 abbots seem to be commanding similar prices to scorpions and scimitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Funnily enough - there's a piece at the start of the green pages in CMV asking exactly the same question!!! I suppose another question is what does it stand the previous owner in restoration bills?? Taking the example of my OT - list price at the dealers was £15K inc the dreaded VAT. If I sell her this year due to a lack of job and thus funds the ticket price will be around 25K to cover all the work thats been done including sourcing the turret armaments. Thats £10K more than you could pick one up at a dealers from - BUT - it has both turret guns, rubber track pads etc ready for immediate use.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Looking at Milweb today and have spotted an Antar = Price £18000. Got me thinking about prices for MV's. Am I right in thinking that's too much for a vehicle or am I living in the past? Take my Ward La France M1A1. Pretty much original condition, runs OK now, nearly fully kitted out. Now if I were to sell the vehicle I would put it up for sale at around the £8500 mark - or am I vastly under estimating the value of my vehicle. Is a CVRT really worth £25000 when my FV432 will sell for around £7500? Is a Jeep really worth £17000. You see GMC's around the £4000-£5000 range which I think is a lot of truck for not a lot of money. Ferrets, Champs, Bedford’s, Stalwarts all selling for reasonable prices. I know it is said if someone wants a vehicle, they will pay the going rate but I am concerned such high prices for vehicles will eventually do damage to the hobby we all belong - or am I mistaken. Surely at these prices only the privileged few will be able to afford vehicles so eventually, these vehicles will end up unsold and possibly being left to decay. Result - vehicles disappearing from the MV scene. Your thoughts please chaps - Markheliops David Crouch is reputed to have paid £23,000 fot John Coopers Antar in the Auction. Only to find both axles had stripped crown wheels. I can't remeber whether buyer's premium and VAT was on top of this figure.. If two people want something the price can bear no relation to what you or I would pay. I seem to remeber 23,000 was the bid only but I may be wrong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Agree with what you say Antarmike so then why is my Ward La France not in the same value range. See the point I am making is the Antar is really expensive and high value (I think it is) so why is my Ward La France not worth as much. It's a big truck, does more than an Antar, is kitted out with most of the equipment and is a historic Second World War vehicle. Probably looking for an answer that does not exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Brian Bailey I believe got £18,000 fot the Mk2 Antar he sold to Australia for the Snowy Mountain museum re-creation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) In the 26 years I've been doing this, I've seen prices do some odd things. Generally, the trend is always up but I remember just before the '89 Normandy tour, someone paid £18000 for a Dodge Command Car, a price it probably wouldn't reach now. It's all to do with someone wanting that particular type of vehicle. Why have Shermans in particular doubled in 'value' every 2 to 3 years? It cannot continue at that rate. Regarding the 432 versus CVRT thing, it's always been my experience that people want a 'tank' to have a gun regardless of the vehicles presense. Freud would probably have something to say about that! I have an M75 APC, it makes a 432 look like a toy and is very rare at least in the UK but it would only make a quarter of what an M41 tank would make if not less even though it's a much more practical vehicle. At the end of the day, does it matter? If you have the vehicle you want, that's all that matters. Those who feel the need to sell for a profit if that means they ask more than the perceived market value are possibly going to be disappointed. Edited January 16, 2009 by Adrian Barrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) I understand about money spent, etc but take for example CVRT and 432 prices. Why is a CVRT so much more in value than a FV432? Some CVRT's sold are straight from the auctions, nothing done to them and are for sale around the £15000. Now look at a FV432, restored, painted, fully kitted out, etc. Max price is around the £8500 range. So exactly why is the CVRT worth so much more than the FV432? Are they more sought after? Are they easier to look after? Are they more desireable to own? Vehicles are roughly the same size, both tracked, and both armoured. To be honest I would have thought the 432 was worth more as they are multi fuel, tax free (depending on age), less lightly to develope faults and easier to drive. What am I missing here? Markheliops Mark, CVRTs are more valuable for 2 reasons. Firstly they are small, you can fit them in many places you can't fit a 432. Park a CVRT next to a 432 and the 432 looks huge. A CVRT is nice to drive on the road, you are no wider than most of the cars. A 432 is a nightmare, especially with that supid drivers hatch sticking up in the way. Secondly they made 3000+ 432s. Now if you look at the CVRTs, they made about 300 Scorpions, of these 136 were converted to Sabres, of these 136 less than half went to civilian owners. They made 89 Strikers, there are maybe 20 in private hands. Withams had 200 432s in the last batch, they have been selling Mk2 432s off for a long time. It's all supply a demand, remember they aren't making any more of any of these vehicles, so the prices can only go up as more people become interested in them. Chris Edited January 16, 2009 by sirhc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Agree with what you say Antarmike so then why is my Ward La France not in the same value range. See the point I am making is the Antar is really expensive and high value (I think it is) so why is my Ward La France not worth as much. It's a big truck, does more than an Antar, is kitted out with most of the equipment and is a historic Second World War vehicle. Probably looking for an answer that does not exist. It has to come back to Supply and Demand, Mark - look how few Antars exist compared to WLFs, were you aware that a year ago there were still 18 or so in a yard Holland many in great order looking for buyers (although sadly that might have changed as the yard has now gone). But having said that, there will only ever be one "Rugged Boy" so you should be happy :-D Life's too short to drive an ugly truck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 It has to come back to Supply and Demand, Mark - look how few Antars exist compared to WLFs, were you aware that a year ago there were still 18 or so in a yard Holland many in great order looking for buyers (although sadly that might have changed as the yard has now gone). But having said that, there will only ever be one "Rugged Boy" so you should be happy :-D Life's too short to drive an ugly truck When I bought a Diamond T and Rogers from the yard at Breda, there was a nissen hut with 70 Wards in it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Here is a pic Catweazle posted up a while back (Ace Cafe) of a Scammell Constructor. It must be finished by now, as I've just seen this truck advertised as restoration completed, except for a few cab details - the last of the PUC registered Pickfords fleet, at £28,500. Now if a Ward laFrance is a lot of truck for your money, this has got to be a lot of your money for a truck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFowler Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Finished a couple of years ago Tony ! Worth every penny to me ! Come on you lucky six numbers ! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Thanks, Andy - the advert (in Vintage Plant/Earthmover) says owner gone abroad. The alternative is to buy one needing a fair bit of work at £4 - 6k, but you can get a lot of work done for £20+k....and of course it wouldn't have the PUC pedigree.....but as has been said, to the right person the cost is not important - lets hope it goes to a good home. Lottery? You will have storage problems at home, so you will be needing me to stable it for you, which I will of course gladly do on the basis that it will need a quick run out at least twice a week to keep it in good fettle, and you will be too far away to do that.....:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFowler Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Tony if I owned her you know you'd always be welcome to drive her !:-D I think these are the people selling her ! Why you'd move abroad and leave all these toys behind I will never know ! :cry: http://www.alexengineering.co.uk/template/alexframeset.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Good points raised by all. I suppose whatever floats your particular boat will decide how much of your hard earnt cash you wish to part with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.