antarmike Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 This photo has been described as a WW1 RAF mobile Oxygen Plant, that came into service as WW1 Aircraft attained greater Ceilings, but obviously the RAF did not exist in WW1, but were formed post war. Can anyone give a better date for this Standard Sentinel mounted Oxygen Plant. Apparently it has a Peter Brotherhood Compressor driven by a 10 HP Petrol Ricardo engine. A flask sits on a weighing scale on the side board, and when full holds 5 Gallons of liquid Oxygen..The Flasks are transported to the Airodrome inside Wicker Baskets like the one on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 I reckon it is actually an Illicit still, and the wicker basket is "moonshine" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 this may sound a bit pedantic, but you state RAF was post WW1? not so, RAF formed on April 1st 1918 from RFC and RNAS, a good 7 months before the end. nice piccy though, a Sentinel Steam waggon cant think of the type though Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well okay, I accept that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 It looks to me that RAF has been over painted over another livery, I suppose it is possible in 7 months it could have transferred from the RFC or RNAS to RAF. It is unfortunate that the print isn't clearer, and the writing under the letters RAF isn't clearer. But if the Vehicle was supplied new to the RAF I doubt whether it would have been lettered over the top of existing writing. What I didn't make clear in my first post was that the attached information claimed that it was Supplied to the RAF, and that seems unlikely to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 This photo has been described as a WW1 RAF mobile Oxygen Plant, that came into service as WW1 Aircraft attained greater Ceilings, but obviously the RAF did not exist in WW1, but were formed post war. Can anyone give a better date for this Standard Sentinel mounted Oxygen Plant. Apparently it has a Peter Brotherhood Compressor driven by a 10 HP Petrol Ricardo engine. A flask sits on a weighing scale on the side board, and when full holds 5 Gallons of liquid Oxygen..The Flasks are transported to the Airodrome inside Wicker Baskets like the one on the ground. Tut! no Royal Air Force in WW1, Lord Trenchard will be turning in his grave! Anyway after having to endure the shock of that light handed dismissal of one of the three services from WW1.........:n00b:. I take it the large coal fired steam engine situated just a few feet from the oxygen plant had to be well and truly cold, before they started Oxygen production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Adam. I have looked at the picture scratched my head sat on the loo looked at the picture Mnnnn As i mentioned to Mike when I first joined the forum we were talking about the Cardington connection. I ran the gas production plants at Goose and MPA did numerous production plant operater, maint and supervisors courses plus the dreaded gas QA course at the RAF own gas works Cardington , but I really don't know what to make of this, As you will know dirt. oil grease etc is the N01 enemy of LOX Absolute cleaniness is essential nothing looks remotelt clean ?? if the product was taken away from this Gin Still in Flasks then it would have been LOX or LIN. So how then did they pump it into gaseous form into cylinders !! I wonder how much was left in the flask even if the Sqn was just a few hundred yards away !! To me this looks like a mobile Gin Still deployed in support of tiffin hours at the Rodney & ruperts mess ! TEd but I am still scratching my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 It isnt the prettiest piece of equipment is it, and as you say it does look a bit manky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooky Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 this may sound a bit pedantic, but you state RAF was post WW1? not so, RAF formed on April 1st 1918 from RFC and RNAS, a good 7 months before the end. nice piccy though, a Sentinel Steam waggon cant think of the type though Mark According to my research it is a 6 ton Standard Waggon (note the Sentinel spelling of waggon) supplied to the War Department during WW1, there were over 200 supplied the Army had 100, the Admiralty 40 and the Air Ministry over 75. Most of these were disposed of as surplus after the war, however some were retained by the Air Ministry and served well into the 1920's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) this may sound a bit pedantic, but you state RAF was post WW1?..........nice piccy though, a Sentinel Steam waggon cant think of the type though Mark Can anyone give a better date for this Standard Sentinel mounted Oxygen Plant. this may sound a bit pedantic, but I thought we already knew it was a Standard Sentinel. Edited January 16, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlangham Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Anyone know which aircraft used oxygen cylinders? I certainly can't think of any WW1 British aircraft which did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 The whole story seemed a bit strange to me which is why I was trying to tie down the date of the photo. I personally doubt a WW1 date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Mike knowing a bit about the subject I have been head scratching on this one everything in that picture spells potential disaster if it was associated with either Liquid or Gaseous Oxygen It would seem the WAGGON is what the piccy claims it is and I would suggest that RAF originally read RFC !! see what I just found on the tinternet !! """""In Britain, British RFC research soon proved beyond question the many benefits of oxygen to pilots flying combat missions, so the question of whether oxygen systems were necessary or not was thereupon mooted, and effort was dedicated towards devising lighter, more dependable, and more comfortable oxygen breathing systems for aviators. Siebe, Gorman, and Company, English pioneers in the design and production of respiratory equipment for miners and divers, produced the first practical military aviation oxygen breathing system for the RFC, although it was somewhat heavy and had certain disadvantages. It used a rubber mask without inlet or outlet valving, and featured single or doubled flasks of compressed oxygen (500 or 1000 liters capacity). This system could support one or two men, but after a year of flight experience with this system, the RFC abandoned it and returned to their original system of providing each aircrewman with his own individual oxygen supply. Not long after this, the 'Dreyer Oxygen Equipment' system was developed by LC Geo. Dreyer of the RFC Medical Branch. Designed by Dreyer, after a cooperative RFC/French study of all the major military aviation oxygen delivery systems in use, the Dreyer oxygen system was adopted by the RFC and placed into production by the De Lestang Company in Paris (patient holder). The key to success in the Dreyer system was its use of an aneroid-controlled, automatic regulator design. This pressure-compensated delivery system was entirely automatic, being regulated entirely by the system and not by hand (as in the Siebe-Gorman system). Unfortunately, the system was so precise that each unit had to be manufactured entirely by hand, with the result that production output was limited and not rapid. American tests of the new Dreyer RFC system showed that it had some deficiencies, but that it was very, very rugged; a review of available systems by these same American researchers suggested that the United States should select and install the improved Dreyer system on American military aircraft. """ In this extract I question the 500 or 1000litres flasks I believe it should read 5 or 10 litre !! TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 500cc or 1000cc would be too small I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 It used a rubber mask without inlet or outlet valving, and featured single or doubled flasks of compressed oxygen (500 or 1000 liters capacity). Ted, Might the figures quoted, be the capacity of the gas before it is compressed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Very interesting. Why is the lorry jacked up off the ground? Does all the equipment have to be level before they start using it? Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 (edited) To steady the vehicle, when the ricardo engine is running, and the compressor is working hard. I don't know what type of wheel bearings a Sentinel has. Some people who run stationary engines on the backs of lorries in the "Spit and bang" section of rallies jack their vehicles to prevent "False Brinelling" the bearings. When a ball or roller bearing is subjected to vibration and load, but isn't revolving the grease is quickly displaced and metal to metal contact occours, leading to pitting and spalling of the bearing faces. Do Sentinels have rolling element bearings or are they plain bearings as per Traction engine practice? Edited January 17, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Steve is the one to answer that. Steve! What do you think? Tim (too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 The Sentinel Standard Waggon has plain bronze bearings with grease lubrication. It is also quite a heavy machine compared with a petrol wagon (the main downside of steamers) so I don't expect that the vibration of a donkey engine would cause it much trouble. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Ted, Might the figures quoted, be the capacity of the gas before it is compressed? Richard, they use the term flask i reckon they took the flask of LOX up and didn't compress it into cylinders but if they did compress from the flask the 500 or 1000 litres may have been the liquid volume before compression. but the flasks in view are only 5 or 10 litres. The plants i operated in the Falklands and Goose Bay were just a slightly modernised version of the WW2 plants; which in turn wouldn't have been greatly different to those in 1918. from what i recall from the courses, plants has never really changed from day one, just a multi stage compressor , intercoolers and distilation columns. tap the lox at one point, liquid nitrogen at another or divert to either an TED oxy or nitro pump for cylinder filling. Had the gas factory at RAF cardington still been open we would have got the answers from one phone call. Alas another part of a once great air force that is no more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Thanks, Ted :tup:: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 The Sentinel Standard Waggon has plain bronze bearings with grease lubrication. It is also quite a heavy machine compared with a petrol wagon (the main downside of steamers) so I don't expect that the vibration of a donkey engine would cause it much trouble. Steve It was a different world then, greased bearings! I had a job At RAF Coningsby where someone discovered that the needle roller bearings in the bomb proof doors of the LOX building had grease nipples on them. We had to strip the bearings, pressure wash them and dry assemble them, to remove as much white grease as possible from the bearings. I expect they siezed up after a few years because they were obviuosly designed to run with lubrication, but someone decided this amounted to a quantifiable risk! Modern H&S gone mad if you ask me but..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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