Ruddington Sales Catalogues mid to late 1961

[AmphibAndy]

I am looking for information on my WM20 which was sold at Ruddington some time in the second half of 1961.   Ideally I would like to discover who it was sold to.   Am I looking for the Holy Grail or are these records out there still?   Thanks for any help with this.   

[fv1609]

I have quite a few Ruddington catalogues, sometimes they were annotated by a particular dealer to indicate the price paid & occasionally indications of inter-dealer transactions. If you have the ERM I should be able to find the date of sale & lot number. Bear in mind that the date of sale could be up to 6 months after it was struck off census.

I have a couple of auctioneer's catalogue which contain additional pages for recording the price paid, I'm not sure if the seller was recorded in them.

About 8 years ago I spoke to one of the auctioneers who seemed to indicate that there wasn't much in the way of records remaining, with him anyway.

[AmphibAndy]

Thank you Clive,   this all sounds quite promising!   By ERM do you mean the post war registrations? if so its 28 YD 15 and it was send from Sudbury to Ruddington with a S/O date of 9/6/61.     Fingers crossed you have some more information,.   thanks again  Andrew 

[welbike]

It had the wartime censusnumber C5552192, and framenumber 1114xx, there's another word written, that I cannot read after Sudbury on Keycard 202b.

I will also check some Ruddington catalogs, but think mine are newer.

Cheers,

Lex

[AmphibAndy]

Thank you Lex.   I have a copy of that key card and I think it perhaps says Sudbury in a different hand.   There is also MAR/1/5(S?)/21 followed by 9 6 61.  All no doubt makes perfect sense if you know what it means.  I suspect the 9/6/61 is a date.   Andrew 

[Richard Farrant]

17 minutes ago, AmphibAndy said:

Thank you Lex.   I have a copy of that key card and I think it perhaps says Sudbury in a different hand.   There is also MAR/1/5(S?)/21 followed by 9 6 61.  All no doubt makes perfect sense if you know what it means.  I suspect the 9/6/61 is a date.   Andrew 

Hi Andrew,

The reference starting MAR/ probably refers to the RAOC Central Vehicle Depot at Marchington, Staffs.

regards, Richard

[welbike]

Yes, that's probably what it says, it's incredible that the cards survive at all as Colonel Penny was ordered to destroy them, luckily I got them.

All persons that actually worked with these cards have passed away now, but I did try in the past when the good Colonel was still under us to ask him about abreviations and meanings, but he always said, "I'm retired now, and don't want to think about my work anymore" so never got much out of him, the lunches in the Officers mess at the Ayrshire barracks in Mönchengladbach were always good though!

Lex

[welbike]

22 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Andrew,

The reference starting MAR/ probably refers to the RAOC Central Vehicle Depot at Marchington, Staffs.

regards, Richard

Thanks Richard, I have added it to the slowly growing file of abreviations.

Just checked the Ruddinton catalogs, but I have nothing before 1967.

Lex

Edited October 13, 2021 by welbike
additional info

[AmphibAndy]

Thanks again chaps.  Such a wealth of information here.  Let’s hope our younger generations pick up on all this in years to come 

[fv1609]

28 YD 15 was sold in a batch 12 motorcycles as Lot No.1185 Sale No.60 on the 4th day of the sale being 22/9/61

If my arithmetic is correct that day a total 408 of your model were sold.

 

[AmphibAndy]

Wow!    Amazing thank you Clive , Richard and Lex.  Is there any likelihood of finding which dealer bought it ?  Probably not given what has been said earlier reference one of the Auctioneers. 

[79x100]

Has the bike been re-registered, or does it still have an early 1960s serial ? If so, then where ? It may be possible to narrow things down to  an informed guess, although it may involve looking through back issues of the weekly motorcycle magazines to see which dealers in various towns were advertising lots of WD M20s at the time.

Lots of 1960s M20 demobs have Nottingham registration as Dawson's of Shakespeare Street, Nottingham had become one of the main ex-ministry motorcycle dealers.

[AmphibAndy]

It is a Nottingham registration yes.   Dawson’s I had heard of.   I wonder if they are still going ?

[No Signals]

I think Dawson's has now closed.  I contacted them many years ago regardng buying M20 parts, knowing that they had stocked them, only to be told that just the previous week they had sold their entire stock.  They were not at liberty to tell me who had bought them.  Maybe it was Russell's?

Edited October 14, 2021 by No Signals

[79x100]

Long gone, I believe and few agents would keep second-hand vehicle records for sixty years.

12 machines is a fair-sized block and by the 1960s, ex-WD M20s were no longer the mainstream transport of the masses that they had been ten years earlier, at which time any BSA dealer would have been happy to have them in the absence of new stock.

Dawson's come up so often in the odd case where documentation has survived. They were clearly the main buyer of usable stock appearing at Ruddington.

Unfortunately, in the early days of DVLA computerisation, the authorities retained and destroyed the old county council logbooks so a lot of history was lost. Nottinghamshire records have not survived either. They were destroyed as instructed. At one time, DVLA were prepared to supply copies made from their microfiche scans of the documentation provided at computerisation but they no longer do this as they consider it forbidden under modern data protection law...The current situation wouldn't be the time to ask for a favour either. I obtained some back in the eighties and nineties, but it was on thermal paper so I've lost it now anyway !

What is it that you're actually hoping to find ? One thing that you could do is search the DVLA records on-line to see if there are other BSAs (or motorcycles) surviving with numbers close to yours. You might find something like this one. Is yours an 'MTO' number ?

https://www.andybuysbikes.com/archivehtml/07597mch.html#

[welbike]

A lot of bikes were bought and shipped to the US too, see these adds, also Pride & Clark a mentioned in a Motorcycle Mechanics article. Also a picture of Mortlocks, where were they? OK, they were in Perth, Australia! building is still there)

Lex

Edited October 14, 2021 by welbike
additional info

[AmphibAndy]

More great information here.    , some marvellous photos of adverts. thanks for sharing.   I am just trying to piece as much of the history together as I can.  I find that aspect of ownership as much fun as restoring them to be honest.     

[welbike]

Yes, same for me! but also riding the bikes, and collecting the manuals and tools for them, make it quite interesting.

Did you read about my newest find? 

And in the meantime I am in contact with the daughter of a War Photographer, who's bike (or front number plate)  I own, pictured in France.

Lex

[Richard Farrant]

8 hours ago, AmphibAndy said:

It is a Nottingham registration yes.   Dawson’s I had heard of.   I wonder if they are still going ?

I bought several ex-army and navy BSA B40WD bikes from Dawsons in the early 70's they were excellent to deal with, all by handwritten letter!

[AmphibAndy]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:49 AM, 79x100 said:

Long gone, I believe and few agents would keep second-hand vehicle records for sixty years.

12 machines is a fair-sized block and by the 1960s, ex-WD M20s were no longer the mainstream transport of the masses that they had been ten years earlier, at which time any BSA dealer would have been happy to have them in the absence of new stock.

Dawson's come up so often in the odd case where documentation has survived. They were clearly the main buyer of usable stock appearing at Ruddington.

Unfortunately, in the early days of DVLA computerisation, the authorities retained and destroyed the old county council logbooks so a lot of history was lost. Nottinghamshire records have not survived either. They were destroyed as instructed. At one time, DVLA were prepared to supply copies made from their microfiche scans of the documentation provided at computerisation but they no longer do this as they consider it forbidden under modern data protection law...The current situation wouldn't be the time to ask for a favour either. I obtained some back in the eighties and nineties, but it was on thermal paper so I've lost it now anyway !

What is it that you're actually hoping to find ? One thing that you could do is search the DVLA records on-line to see if there are other BSAs (or motorcycles) surviving with numbers close to yours. You might find something like this one. Is yours an 'MTO' number ?

https://www.andybuysbikes.com/archivehtml/07597mch.html#

Reading this again, you mention microfiche copies of registrations.    Do you know for sure that local councils provided copies to DVLA?   It always seem utterly bonkers that DVLA should have taken over the registration of vehicles from local councils and told them to destroy the records.  They are still refusing to reallocate the correct and original number to my bike even though its plain for all that it was correctly painted on the bike when we bought it in 1974.    My father mislaid the log book and I promised him before he passed away that I would continue to pursue DVLA for this number.   No doubt they want to sell it in one of their auctions at some future date.   If there are microfiche maybe there is hope.  This is the bike with the original number when I started to restore it in 2015

Edited November 15, 2021 by AmphibAndy

[welbike]

Send me the frame number (if you haven't already done so, sorry, getting flooded with inquiries) 

Cheers,

Lex

[79x100]

24 minutes ago, AmphibAndy said:

Reading this again, you mention microfiche copies of registrations.    Do you know for sure that local councils provided copies to DVLA?   It always seem utterly bonkers that DVLA should have taken over the registration of vehicles from local councils and told them to destroy the records.  They are still refusing to reallocate the correct and original number to my bike even though its plain for all that it was correctly painted on the bike when we bought it in 1974.    My father mislaid the log book and I promised him before he passed away that I would continue to pursue DVLA for this number.   No doubt they want to sell it in one of their auctions at some future date.   If there are microfiche maybe there is hope.  This is the bike with the original number when I started to restore it in 2015

Andy, there will only have been a record created (and microfilmed at Swansea) for vehicles which were 'active' after computerisation began. In some cases, this will have involved the keeper forwarding the old brown log book and they should have microfilmed it before destruction...However, if you know that the old brown log book was simply lost and it has never been on the computer system then that will be a dead-end.

DVLC most certainly didn't ask local authorities for copy records relating to 70 years worth of registrations , mostly for vehicles that no longer existed.

I don't believe there is any evidence that DVLA ever have or intend to re-sell old registration numbers..there are enough permutations of the modern sequences.

Initially, it was quite straightforward to put older vehicles onto the system, but it was exploited to a criminal degree by the parasites who call themselves Number Plate Dealers. I've seen motorcycles with thirty or so frame numbers stamped on them. At one time, they  accepted tax discs, but that was fiddled too and now the burden of proof is extremely high..

[AmphibAndy]

1 hour ago, 79x100 said:

Andy, there will only have been a record created (and microfilmed at Swansea) for vehicles which were 'active' after computerisation began. In some cases, this will have involved the keeper forwarding the old brown log book and they should have microfilmed it before destruction...However, if you know that the old brown log book was simply lost and it has never been on the computer system then that will be a dead-end.

DVLC most certainly didn't ask local authorities for copy records relating to 70 years worth of registrations , mostly for vehicles that no longer existed.

I don't believe there is any evidence that DVLA ever have or intend to re-sell old registration numbers..there are enough permutations of the modern sequences.

Initially, it was quite straightforward to put older vehicles onto the system, but it was exploited to a criminal degree by the parasites who call themselves Number Plate Dealers. I've seen motorcycles with thirty or so frame numbers stamped on them. At one time, they  accepted tax discs, but that was fiddled too and now the burden of proof is extremely high..

Thank you.   The M20 was not "active" at the time of computerisation, but I am afraid I dont share your positive view of DVLA and its responsibilities.  However you look at it,  they took responsibility for vehicles that were registered and in many many cases legitimately off the road. They failed to secure data that their mandate should have required them to do.   My father sent in many log books and received few back as they seemed to think it was reasonable not to return historic documents.   The M20 was clearly sold to Dawsons as they were based in Nottingham and that is where my registration comes from .  The bike was sold at auction in late 1960, the NAU series of numbers were issued in very late/early 1961 in Notts.   Numbers either side of my number are issued to BSA and Royal Enfield.     It is 100% clear to all who look at this that the number is correct, but DVLA will NOT allocate it back to its rightful place, and cannot provide me with any valid reason why not.  They are a pain in the backside , every time I have dealt with them its a nightmare.   They are not fit for purpose and should be replaced.   Most recently they lost two applications for period numbers on 2 x Jeeps I also own.   After a letter to the CEO they issued me with new registration documents.   Thankfully I did not send in the buff log books but keep them safe with me. 

[AmphibAndy]

2 hours ago, welbike said:

Send me the frame number (if you haven't already done so, sorry, getting flooded with inquiries) 

Cheers,

Lex

Thanks Lex,   you have already, kindly confirmed the frame number and another forum member here has kindly provided me with sales information of my bike.  What I cannot provide is a copy of the original log book.  Perhaps one day it will turn up on E bay. 

 

[79x100]

They gave about ten years to register vehicles based on the old log books with no additional checks and finally had to give up as it was obvious the number plate dealers were buying up lost books with 'nice' numbers. It was widely published in the motorcycle press at the time that the system was coming to an end and documentation would be required...The Lovejoys of the old vehicle trade were more than capable of faking an old painted number plate and bolting it to a rusty wreck.

As an enthusiast for old vehicles and historical records in general, I find it a tragedy that the LVLO records were destroyed....but they were, so unless you can find the log book, there is no way that you can hope to reclaim it now. We're forty years on from when it was last possible and the situation has only become more difficult with each policy change.

There is nothing to stop you displaying off-road with your old plates, if you want to...and within about ten years that's likely to be all that is permitted with any of our infernal combustion engines...