A question to all Carrier owners

[Tom M]

Hello,

 

I have admired the Universal Carrier ever since I built my first Tamiya model of one as a boy. Later in life, as an Officer Cadet at RMA Sandhurst, I read 18 Platoon by Sydney Jary; An account of the experiences of a platoon commander in the 4th Battalion The Somerset Light Infantry during the campaign in North West Europe in 1944-45. In his accounts the author recalls many stories of the Platoon's Carrier and writes very fondly of it. These accounts cemented by interest in the Universal Carrier and I decided that one day I would own one.

 

I am now in the position that Carrier ownership is more of a reality, but there are very few around and those that are coming up are either seemingly very expensive or wrecks that appear to be nothing more that half a hull and a few bogies.

 

To the lucky few who own Carriers; what are the pitfalls of Carrier Ownership? Are there any issues or hidden expenses that I should be aware of before plunging into light armour ownership, what is the spares availability like? How difficult are they to transport? I have a background knowledge of armour having spent 8 years in the REME working in Armoured units, and more recently designing AFVs, but I have never owned a tracked vehicle and this time won't have the benefit of calling up the Recovery Platoon when it inevitably breaks down!

 

In the last 9 months I unfortunately missed out on the opportunity to acquire a Mk1 Carrier from New Zealand, at what seemed a reasonable price. What is available recently, and closer to home, seems to be in the £40-£50k bracket. Is this the going rate for a carrier now? Is there any information out there that I can swot up on, so when I do look at something I can recognise whether it is complete or not?

 

I would welcome any advice from those of you who own, or have owned, a Carrier.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Tom M

[Starfire]

I don't personally own a carrier, and while the museum owns and operates an Australian LP2, I've only done a little work on it.

 

From what I've seen, the suspension is reasonably simple, the steering is reasonably complex and the running gear is pretty basic, using a Ford flathead V8, gearbox and diff.

 

Being a reasonably light armoured vehicle, we haven't had any real problems with track wear and transport hasn't been too challenging. It's a fun little bus to drive.

 

If you're experienced as a REME mech and have worked with armour before, a carrier should be a walk in the park - relatively simple and lightweight, although you'll probably find it very old school.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[eddy8men]

tom

carriers are great fun to drive and there are quite a few owners in the uk who will help you out in any way they can, (myself included). there aren't many pitfalls as parts are plentiful, although track is getting hard to find. the engine and gearbox is ford so lots about for not a lot of money. it all depends what you want. are you looking to do a full resto, if so then £6k might get you a project. if you don't want a basket case to restore then you are looking at £30k plus.

transport is tricky as they are too heavy to tow on a 3500kg trailer so you'd have to get it moved on a beavertail.

 

i'll pm you my mob number if you see something and want some advice.

 

regards

 

rick

[Hoseman]

New to carriers myself, having wanted one for years as most on these forums will know.

I know the ones from New Zealand, I've got two of them now and the other went to Derby. Mine are in storage waiting workshop space.

The running gear, engine and armour are the easy bits. Linkage takes bit of fettling, but it's all the little bits that were easily removed at the time that are hard to find.

There's the hull options too, welded or riveted.

British, canadian or Australian

There's always the T16 option too.

Depends on your skills and enthusiasm as eddyeightman says.

Lot of good guys on here to help.

Some Muppets too:cool2:

I know of a couple that might be up for grabs, the guy has given up on them I think.

Pm me you need any help, I'm by no means an expert but made few contacts.

Good luck

[Niels v]

well there is also the loyd carrier option, there has been couple for sale recently and they seem to be around 30k£ restored.

[Tom M]

Thank you all for your replies, I will PM you when I get an opportunity. The Carrier community certainly seems like a welcoming and helpful group, I look forward to being part of it.

 

There is a Carrier on Milweb currently (the complete one not the two hulls), but the price seems a bit high. I am justifying the cost of a Carrier based on it being a long term investment that will, when I can no longer get in or out of it, become part of my pension fund. Better to able to drive your investment than just look at it in a bank! Hence the price needs to be right.

 

I have seen a couple of T16 Carriers for sale, but have read that they didn't see much service during the war. Perhaps that is why they generally seem to be less money.

 

I don't want to take on a complete project as I know that with work and family commitments it won't get finished for years! I have no problem tackling mechanical rebuilds, and the REME museum is soon to be 5 minutes drive from my house so I may always have the option of help if I need a heavy lift.

 

Does anyone know of a useful reference source to look at photographs of the various carrier marks. The rear of the Carriers seem to vary quite considerably in terms of stowage, towing pintle etc.

 

Hope to speak to some of you soon.

 

Tom M

[lssah2025]

I have a 43 MKII* for sale if interested, send me a PM if you want.

 

http://s141.photobucket.com/user/lssah2025/slideshow/1943%20Bren%20Carrier%20Ford%20MK%20II?sort=3

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2016 by lssah2025

[Ben..]

Carriers are great fun to own and drive.

 

Spend your money wisely and do lots of homework. Nigel Watson's books are well worth the investment if you're going to buy one.

 

Vehicle spares are out there but are getting harder to find. Engine and gearbox spares are plentiful.

 

Good luck

 

Ben

[LarryH57]

So is it correct that a T-16 is not actually a vehicle used in WW2?

[Adrian Barrell]

T16 was used in WW2, there are many photos showing it.

 

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1357

[dgrev]

Tom

 

Things to ponder:

 

1) Track - genuine carrier track isn't the height of engineering excellence. It was good for a maximum of 500 miles. The pins were

of a good steel, but the links were nothing special. They suffer from cracking, wallying out of the pin holes and dog earing of the

guide teeth. Given that we are discussing something last manufactured over 70 years ago the supply of NOS track was

exhausted decades ago, the reality is that if you want to drive yours much, you may need to be the pioneer of getting track

made as you are unlikely to buy something with much track miles left on it.

So far, for reasons I don't really understand, lots have floated this idea, but it always falls in a hole when it comes time for

those who claim they want a new set of tracks to put their hand in their wallets. After many years of the same problem, the half

track community has finally got its act together and new track is now available, hopefully the carrier community will follow.

 

2) Be aware that there is a difference between British and Aussie track, you can't mix the 2. Likewise road wheels on British carriers are narrower than those on Aussie carriers. No idea about which side the Canadians chose.

 

3) Weak point of the design is the diff. That is the most likely item to suffer a catastrophic failure. It is nothing more than a Blitz truck diff and was never designed to cope with the loads of brake steer on a tracked vehicle.

So a spare would be a good idea.

Just because the thing is huge, don't assume that means robust, the diffs were like the track, not made with the world's best steel. A modern diff of the same load rating is roughly 1/3rd the size and probably a great deal stronger.

 

4) They are physical to drive, on flat ground no worries, side slope means that on a warp steer version you get to support

a goodly part of the weight of the vehicle via your arms and the steering wheel.

 

5) A brake steer version means all the fun of brake fluid and 2 hydraulic circuits. On an open vehicle, seldom used, in the British climate - sooner you than me.....

 

6) Crash gearbox operated by a longish set of linkages. Due to the incredible amount of whooshing noise coming from the fan,

nestled close to your left ribs and ear, you can't hear much of what the engine is doing, so that makes gear changes all the more

challenging.

 

7) Poor man's tank, relatively light and small, hence why the prices of late have been getting impressive.

 

8) Practicality = ZERO. As someone else said, you will probably need to carry it to events, this means it is not going to happen

behind a VW Golf with a 6x4 trailer. So now you are also having to factor in paying transport or investing in a 6 or 8 tonne

truck with ramps, driver's licence to suit, and being England, you need somewhere to house that too.

 

9) An insightful bloke once summed it up pretty well when he said to me "the Poms spent several decades perfecting the thing,

only to realise at the end of the war that it was a flawed concept and then went to wheeled (Saracen) then tracked APCs".

 

10) Highly desirable because nothing much else in their weight size class as an alternative. Much like a Ferret, what else is out

there instead that will fit in a regular suburban garage that is a "tank"?

 

More info on my website http://www.owningtanks.com

 

Regards

Doug

[Hoseman]

Now you tell me . . . . .!!:laugh:

Like our friend here, I was after a carrier for years, did my research and the sums. Had a type and value in mind and stuck to it. Was offered loads of vehicles worldwide, some apparently we're gold plated judging by the prices!

In the end, stood by my budget and ended up with two for that price, and rarer than the gold one!!

Carriers are fun and practical vehicles, easy to work on and basic. Parts are out there, help is there too, just bide your time for the right one.

[eddy8men]

i have to agree with everything paul (hoseman) has said but remember to choose your projects carefully! you might end up spending 5+ years looking for parts and working on it before it gets on the road. that's 5 years you can never get back.

the plus side is once you get the carrier you'll find the community worldwide is easily the most helpful bunch of enthusiasts you could ever hope to meet, (although as ever there are a few rogues). carriers are great and you will enjoy owning one guaranteed

[Tom M]

Thanks for the advice guys, I look forward to getting involved with the group, you sound like a helpful bunch.

 

Sounds like somebody needs to remanufacture a new batch of track. If people have approached this before is there a reason why the project has never been taken to completion? I work in the AFV business, so know a few track suppliers, but I imagine Carrier track would be something any foundry could produce. Are there original manufacturing drawings of the track available, or any NOS track which could be reverse engineered?

[eddy8men]

there have been guys that have chased up track manufacturing as far a field as china and to cast new links is fairly cheap, it's the machining that ends up making it expensive and when you combine that with the fact that there are 176 links each side and pins then it works out too expensive, (i would guess at £5k). there will soon come a day when people have no choice but to make new, it's just a matter of time

[David Herbert]

Actually new British dry pin track isn't machined except for grinding / cutting off flash and the runner where the metal was poured in. The holes are cored and not even cleaned up with a drill. There is a very tight tolerence on the diameter and distance apart of the holes but the initial wear is quite high. I have seen Chieftain track being manufactured and that was just the same. I would have thought that carrier track was a candidate for lost wax casting.

 

I think that the problem is that we are so used to buying military vehicle parts for a tiny fraction of their cost that when confronted with real modern prices for what are very low volume production runs (compared to modern motor industry spares) we get rather put off.

 

David

[Hoseman]

There's a guy in US who had a small run made, as extra links for front plate, whether for show or use I'm not sure, but it's do-able! Look at the prices of the halftrack ones when the Brazilian Army got rid of their vehicles, the price of track was stupid. But now I think only a couple of grand (don't quote me!)

I'm sure if enough are interested and hard cash put into it (not just promises made to buy when produced) that anything is possible and the right price!

By the way, I'm looking for good usable British track!

[eddy8men]

thanks for enlightening me david, i had read on mlu that the machining was expensive but by the sounds of it they were wrong. which means it is more affordable than i thought. all we need to do now is find someone willing to run around and do the leg work and we can all have new track

[eddy8men]

by the way am i right in assuming the track is manganese steel

[Tom M]

Does Nigel Watson's book on Carriers (Vol 3) have an engineers drawing of the track? That should state the steel used in the casting. If no drawings exist a piece of NOS track could easily be laser scanned to create a CAD file, this could be used to create wax moulds for a lost wax casting process. I am not sure if there is a process to 3D print in wax. I know we 3D print Titanium alloys, but that is a bit over kill and a tad too expensive.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Tom M

[Lauren Child]

To maybe take a different spin on the question, the challenge with wartime British and Commonwealth vehicles tends to be information. You can get copies of most (if not all) US vehicle manuals, but British and Commonwealth manuals are more difficult to come by.

 

On the plus side, this means there is a good community of owners, and a few folks who have decent collections of manuals can be goldmines of information. On the downside, finding details of which parts to look for, let alone finding those parts, can be a challenge. This tends to be double problematic as many parts sellers won't know what they've got either. You tend to have to trust your gut at parts fairs and swap meets.

 

While I'm not a carrier owner, keep this in mind, as you may want to invest a few more pennies to get a more complete starting point.

[David Herbert]

Wax is an ideal material to 3D print with, and if using the resulting thing for lost wax steel casting, the problems with 3D printing of low density and poor surface finish, do not matter. I doubt though that it would be economic to 3D print the sort of number of patterns that would be needed for carrier track, much better to CNC machine an aluminium mould and cast the wax patterns from that.

 

There were various steels used for carrier track, manganese probably being the best in terms of life, but I have not seriously looked at the relative properties and anyway there are much more sophisticated steels available now at reasionable costs. This would certainly be an area where you would need advice from someone with up to date specialised knowledge rather than someone like me.

 

David

[eddy8men]

thanks david, i think tom might be in a better position to find out what composition of steel modern track is made from. unless of course it's a state secret

[Degsy]

A viable alternative would be a M29C Studebaker Weasel, US produced but derived from what was originally a British design.

Used by both US and British forces during WW11 weighs around 2 tons so can easily be trailered and there is a choice of tracks available. I admit to a vested interesr as I have one for sale but it is a lovely vehicle to drive and I will be very sad to see it go. By the way it's not armoured but instead is amphibious and with it's canvas roof and sides fitted it is impervious to the British weather. Mine is at present advertised on Milweb for £19950, a lot cheaper than a 'Bren' Carrier and a more practical proposition when fitted with the rubber tracks as mine does.

[Hoseman]

Wax is an ideal material to 3D print with, and if using the resulting thing for lost wax steel casting, the problems with 3D printing of low density and poor surface finish, do not matter. I doubt though that it would be economic to 3D print the sort of number of patterns that would be needed for carrier track, much better to CNC machine an aluminium mould and cast the wax patterns from that.

 

There were various steels used for carrier track, manganese probably being the best in terms of life, but I have not seriously looked at the relative properties and anyway there are much more sophisticated steels available now at reasionable costs. This would certainly be an area where you would need advice from someone with up to date specialised knowledge rather than someone like me.

 

David

A note on the track, there wouldn't be a need really for the high grade steel to manufacture them.

A good steel, yes for safety, but a carrier is not going to get THAT much use in UK, even less on roads. Maybe a couple of arena circuits at shows and a play in the fields, that's it!