restoration CVR(T) 65247 invades the USA

[teletech]

One problem I noticed on disassembly is that the rear outside motor mount rotted away from the hull.

Most of my floor pan seems to be in good shape so I'm not sure why just this one spot has such bad corrosion. I wiped the water away only to have a puddle reappear a short while later so there is some trapped water either in the flaking oxide or the torsion tunnel that I'm going to have to deal with.

I suppose I'll have to grind it out and break out the TIG, but part of me wonders if it wouldn't be stronger to just run a bolt through the hull and be done.

In any case, back at it tomorrow!

I have to fit up the new final drives and re-link the track so I can drag it outside (there is a turn involved) to pressure-wash the vehicle at which point I should destroy fewer clothes while working on what's left.

[robin craig]

I dont know why you think you need to put track back on it.

 

They move quite readily and safely on the flat with a proper A frame on some roadwheels alone.

 

You can throw some plywood down on top of a rough floor surface to save the rubber a bit.

 

I have a complete worn set of track up for grabs if you want it.

 

Moving a CVR(T) can be easy with some planning.

 

R

[teletech]

I dont know why you think you need to put track back on it.

 

They move quite readily and safely on the flat with a proper A frame on some roadwheels alone.

 

You can throw some plywood down on top of a rough floor surface to save the rubber a bit.

 

I have a complete worn set of track up for grabs if you want it.

 

Moving a CVR(T) can be easy with some planning.

 

R

 

I'd roll it straight and in gentle turns all day long but I was worried about peeling the rubber off the roadwheels on the ends when I do what amounts to a zero point turn.

 

I could take about four links in my carry-on after Aquino but after that getting it home would be expensive. :-)

Thanks, I've got a spare set of what I'd call fair track on hand.

[Grasshopper]

A word of warning - the rubber tyres on ex Belgian CVRT that I have come across seem to be less-well bonded to the wheels than ex UK ones, so anything you can put down on the ground to save the rubber is a good idea.

[timbo]

Surely if the rubber is that bad that it can't stand being rolled then it won't last 5 mins in use anyway..? It seems to be age dependant in that even 'new' wheels can debond/ flake very quickly if they are past a certain age. The wheels have a year stamp on the rubber so easy to tell how old they are. This is one of the reasons I chose to downsize my growing roadwheel collection, coz they would sit there for years then disintegrate when I needed to use them.

 

Maybe there is something in using them as well as sometimes they seem to last for ever if they get regular(ish) usage.

[teletech]

It will be interesting to see how these hold up, I have three where the rubber is obviously falling off the wheel where the adhesive failed but the rest seem solid so far in just moving it around. I actually think the adhesive failure was due to moisture getting in and attacking the aluminum.

Assuming the month/year are the numbers sunk in the little round embosses then the bulk of mine are from 91 with a few from 77.

I have a set of take-offs from 10 so fingers crossed that I'm good for a while.

 

I pulled the exhaust manifold on 6BT I got in the parts donor Sturgeon and as I feared the rust was quite noticeable so I pulled the head.

It's not nearly as bad as the Jag motor but it's still fairly nasty in there, new rings and pistons after a re-bore and it should be just fine.

Sad state for an engine with five hundred hours and change.

 

If I were going to store a CVR(T) for any duration in less than ideal conditions I'd make very sure the hull drain was open and clear and disconnect my exhaust system and cap it off.

[teletech]

A couple pictures regarding the steering caliper removal.

Save your bolt extractors, just drill much of the cap screw out and get under the other side with a prybar then lift.

snapped off what was left nicely. The bit left in the gearbox just came right out with pliers, the bit in the caliper was pressed out easily enough.

[teletech]

Clutch teardown.

I hope yours looks better than what I got, rusty and nasty throughout. It took quite a while to disassemble because everything was well seized with rust.

I got it apart but not without some sacrifice and the substance that is supposed to be oil is very muddy and watery indeed.

 

This is a good place to mention that before I started I painted my shop floor where I would be working on the Scorpion and it has been extremely nice to be able to clean up spills of mucky oil with just a shop vacuum and a rag with a touch of cleaner. So much better than unsealed concrete which just looks a mess as things soak into it. I should have done the whole shop but ran out of time.

 

Interesting to note the shoe screws, some odd little bolts. I used a 5/16" socket but it required a bit of pounding on for a very snug fit. I tried 8 and 9MM to no avail and even broke out a 3/16BS.

Also worth noting is that the pistons are tapered so pound-out more easily going outside to the centre.

 

I need to find some parts so if you know of some that aren't too dear I'd be very interested in hearing about it. I really need another complete clutch but that's another story.

 

Half of the pads, almost all of the little lock-tabs for the bolts holding the friction material, along with a few of the screws, and one circlip broke. I'll need a pair of garter springs and couple replacement seals as well. I think all the bearings will clean up the rest of the way but I'm worried about the rust inside of the drum, I'll boil it out and see what's left.

Some further cleaning to do but I think that will have to wait a day or two while I lift my turret a bit higher so the elevation gearbox will clear.

[Starfire]

I've got to say that I'm impressed that you're taking on a challenging project, in a country where spares are almost non existent. If it were me, I would have purchased the best example money could buy and just imported that, but it's good that someone wants to save these others as well.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[robin33ba07]

same here I can only send you my admiration

[teletech]

Well, most of what you need for a restoration is willpower which is luckily not subject to shipping.

Much of what I'm likely to need is small parts at this point and some bits I'll just have to fabricate if I can't get it any other way.

The fellows who are working on things from WW1 or the more obscure vehicles from WWII and such have my admiration, at least I'm not spending days or weeks repairing range damage. Of course, in those cases you can really see the progress.

 

I'm past the removing big chunks and feeling like I'm really making progress phase and down in to the part where it's just about endurance.

I spent a solid day stripping the old engine down to just a long block. I started dressing the new motor and had to set it aside for a while, I suspect when the hull is cleaned and things start going back in I'll be more excited but it somehow seems premature to fuss over a distributor while my turret is dangling in the air.

There are a huge number of hours between a mostly stripped interior and a completely stripped one. Water, time, and a little battery acid for seasoning makes every nut and bolt a fairly thankless challenge down in the turret basket area.

 

I will say I'm looking forward to less of the "old tank smell" around the shop. A lot like the bilge of an old wooden boat: take the dirt from a few continents, spill a bunch of old gas onto it, add some lubricating oil and a dash of sweat, next get plenty of rainwater in so things can rot or rust as their nature dictates. Close up the hatches and wait. I'm looking forward to more of a new tank smell, that would make a fun air freshener come to think of it. Something to hang from the rearview...

A sweet story though, just as they arrived one of the artists caught a whiff and told me I had instantly transported her back to her childhood. Apparently her father had rented tanks to Hollywood cake when she was a little girl and that particular smell triggered those memories quite strongly!

 

I was amused to find just how much lighter this has gotten, a friend was helping me link the track back up after the new final drives went on so I could move it outside for washing and we accidentally moved the vehicle!

[robin craig]

Dear Pavl,

 

good to meet you last weekend at Aquino, thank you for helping fix the gun on the Hummer.

 

Nice to see your work and your grit and determination in going about it.

 

You are so blessed living where you do, weather is such a challenge for us up here in the snow climates.

 

Some areas you are going in to are beyond where I have gone some are familiar.

 

Once again, thanks for you help at Aquino

 

Robin

[teletech]

Dear Pavl,

 

good to meet you last weekend at Aquino, thank you for helping fix the gun on the Hummer.

 

Nice to see your work and your grit and determination in going about it.

 

You are so blessed living where you do, weather is such a challenge for us up here in the snow climates.

 

Some areas you are going in to are beyond where I have gone some are familiar.

 

Once again, thanks for you help at Aquino

 

Robin

 

My pleasure, thanks for welcoming Californian into your midst.

We are lucky with no snow but in another few years I'm afraid I'm going to have to ship water to my house!

[teletech]

Here is my entry into the nastiest J-60 competition:

and remember, this motor was IN the vehicle, not in a field someplace!

 

I finally got my turret basket out, of course all the bearings were solid lumps.

 

One good pressure-washer later (HOT water helps, I had the thermostat dialed above boiling)

I did find what I assume to be the driver's name. Not sure if it''s Belle or B.Elle though.

[teletech]

The one that gets me is how I managed to have 2/3 of a fuel tank full of water. the fuel cap recessed into the top deck and having no way to shed water, a simple drain cut off to the side and run out the hull would have been a huge help.

 

 

Interesting, on further inspection it turns out there actually IS a drain coming off just above the fuel cap and exiting on the rear hull, so if it weren't plugged up it would have drained properly. Something to check on next time one is doing PM would be to blow that passage out!

[Sean N]

 

I will say I'm looking forward to less of the "old tank smell" around the shop. A lot like the bilge of an old wooden boat: take the dirt from a few continents, spill a bunch of old gas onto it, add some lubricating oil and a dash of sweat, next get plenty of rainwater in so things can rot or rust as their nature dictates. Close up the hatches and wait

 

Got used to that smell, with added bilge, recommissioning our M2 bridging rig - or should I say never got used to it!

[teletech]

Well, today I decided to experiment with strippers.

 

Methods of hull prep that is.

I decided to see what worked best for me so prepped one square foot of hull with each method, I have more to do but here are the initial results:

 

Needle scaler: it's a cheap one I just bought to see if it really was worth the money of a good one.

For me, nope. It was loud, threw big chips but took many passes to get all the surface and the surface is a little rougher than I would like. I saw a suggestion that pointed needles were better so I sharpened mine, when I turned down the air pressure somewhat it produced a nicer surface and was less punishing. The needle gun takes off pretty big pieces so they don't stay in the air long but throws them a long way. This is a tool that using it feels like work.

It does the best job on the welds (yep, the right tool for the job) and nooks and crannies. I don't really like the way it pounds steel and other contaminants into my Al hull but I think it would be a good choice for steel hulls with lots of layers and some rust.

You will NEED eye and ear protection, respiratory and vibratory protection should be worn

1'x1' = 12:47

 

 

Crud thug: This is a tool I bought from my Snap-on dealer many years ago to remove bondo and undercoat from a frogeye I was rebuilding. It did those jobs well but I really didn't do anything with it afterwards. In some ways it's like a needle scaler but without many of the bad parts. It is pretty quiet, uses less air than the needle gun, and has almost no vibration. This tool wants a little more finesse. You can somewhat selectively strip layers. If you start bearing down it's time to sharpen your belt lest you bend your needles so just a very light pressure is needed. Sharpening the belt takes about 10 seconds on a grinder with a wide, fine stone. I sharpened it twice for the first pass and again for the second pass and did include that time. I feel like it would get boring but I could use this tool all day with no ill effects. Paint removal goes a little more quickly if you do two passes at right angles. The paint chips are smaller and lower velocity so they go almost everywhere and settle pretty quickly. Surface finish is fine, it does welds almost as well as a needle gun but can't get into corners as well. The frequent sharpening might be a liability for working on steel hulls with rust.

Note that the belt I had on this tool is a well-used leftover from years ago and a new belt might be quicker.

You NEED respiratory protection, you should wear eye protection, hearing protection would be smart but I doubt you will do much damage doing one hull.

1'x1' = 8:35 first pass, 12:15 two passes.

I did the second pass to compare more evenly with the needle scaler, I think I would have primed it after the first pass.

 

 

Pneumatic orbital sander:

This is an old Dynabrade from my furniture-making days and a well-used example at that.

I used a few 80-grit discs, the adhesive was so old they tended to fly off. I suspect the time I spent changing discs was offset by having sharp paper. It had more vibration than the Crud Thug but not too bad, I wouldn't want to run it more than 2-3 hours at a stretch. Useless in corners and not great in tight spaces but it makes flat parts flatter. It provides a nice paintable surface in most cases though 60-grit would have been faster and a better choice.

The dust is in fine particles so stays in the air longer but it doesn't go everywhere, an air filter would keep your shop pretty clean. Here again, going down to the metal on a steel hull will wear out you paper very quickly.

It has a running cost, quality paper would cost me about $220 for a hull so that could be a consideration.

You NEED respiratory protection, you should wear eye protection and hearing protection would be smart but I doubt you will do much damage doing one hull.

1'x1' = 6:27

Like the crud thug, I would need a second pass to get it as clean as the needle scaler.

 

 

Of course I should mention that a good hot-water pressure wash and then some time going over the loose stuff with a chisel will speed the process greatly for some processes and make no difference at all for others.

 

Remember, this paint has all sorts of nasty stuff in it so clean up your work area and yourself well. No point having fun toys if your health packs up.

[solipsistnation]

Remember, this paint has all sorts of nasty stuff in it so clean up your work area and yourself well. No point having fun toys if your health packs up.

 

That's the Jacques Littlefield lesson right there.

[datadawg]

Well, today I decided to experiment with strippers.

I was all excited to read about your strippers, until I realized you were only talking about paint and not dancing girls, :laugh:.

Very informative post, nevertheless. Have you considered media blasting? I don't know if you own the equipment, but Harbor Freight sells several units, cheap, and right now there is a 25% coupon on their website.

http://www.harborfreight.com/110-lb-pressurized-abrasive-blaster-60696-10377.html

I am sure there is a downside to using media blasting, but that's how my Saracen hull was done (I did not do it myself).

[datadawg]

That's the Jacques Littlefield lesson right there.

I read he died of colon cancer, but point well taken.

[datadawg]

Here is my entry into the nastiest J-60 competition:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]105108[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]105106[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]105107[/ATTACH]

and remember, this motor was IN the vehicle, not in a field someplace!

 

 

Pavl, amazing work you are doing. What are you planning to do with the engine, farm out to engine shop or do tear down yourself? One idea, and it may be totally off the wall. But a bunch of shows now chronicle restorations using big budget teams. What about contacting the producers and seeing if they want to sponsor your gig? I don't know much about the nitty gritty, but seems like they do a restoration in a week that should take a year. The car restoration theme is pretty worn out, but they might be interested in a "tank"! There are different shows (owner participates, owner doesn't, but they "steal" vehicle and throw $100K of parts/labor into it in 168 hours, etc.). Since you are in California, it might be the right location for these shows... Please let us know if this idea has legs.

[teletech]

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, regarding the motor I considered various options. There was a part of me that was very tempted to do a re-power since the more I read about the 4.2 motor the less I want one, but since a low-speed diesel wants a gearbox and I couldn't find a high-speed diesel in a price that worked for me. I seriously thought about a gasoline repower despite the originality argument, the Ford 300 motor would be perfect but the manifolds were on the wrong side. The Jeep 4.0 was interesting: it had the manifolds on the right side and the power was about right but then timing came into play, the local wrecker had a 50% off sale and there was a 1986 XJ6 in the yard so I went down and picked that up. The 1986 motor has most of the good things going for it with the hardened crankshaft, block cuts, and partial sleeves. So I just need to freshen it up a touch and should be good for a long while. Now, the compression is normal which could be an issue if I were using really poor fuel and I need to be concerned about heat, my plan is to use water injection which will drop my head and EGTs dramatically.

 

I like the idea of a TV show rebuild but I suspect the facts I've already started and parts are thin in the states work against it.

 

Pavl, amazing work you are doing. What are you planning to do with the engine, farm out to engine shop or do tear down yourself? One idea, and it may be totally off the wall. But a bunch of shows now chronicle restorations using big budget teams. What about contacting the producers and seeing if they want to sponsor your gig? I don't know much about the nitty gritty, but seems like they do a restoration in a week that should take a year. The car restoration theme is pretty worn out, but they might be interested in a "tank"! There are different shows (owner participates, owner doesn't, but they "steal" vehicle and throw $100K of parts/labor into it in 168 hours, etc.). Since you are in California, it might be the right location for these shows... Please let us know if this idea has legs.

[teletech]

I was all excited to read about your strippers, until I realized you were only talking about paint and not dancing girls, :laugh:.

Very informative post, nevertheless. Have you considered media blasting? I don't know if you own the equipment, but Harbor Freight sells several units, cheap, and right now there is a 25% coupon on their website.

http://www.harborfreight.com/110-lb-pressurized-abrasive-blaster-60696-10377.html

I am sure there is a downside to using media blasting, but that's how my Saracen hull was done (I did not do it myself).

 

I've had a hard time getting media-blasting businesses to return my calls but I'm open to the idea, especially if I decide to fully strip the interior.

Doing it myself would be a challenge since a had a neighbor call the cops on me when I just washed the vehicle outside my shop. (worried about radioactivity, yes it was in the wrong conflicts and even then the 20 years since it was in service... but you can't argue with crazy) I suppose I could set up an indoor space but it's *awfully* messy.

Stay tuned as I plan to try some more expensive strippers for a better outcome.

[Tony B]

You have at least proved one thing. Screwball neighbours are a world wide phenomenon.

[teletech]

It was fun and expensive but the first time was hard on the body so I thought I'd try the more expensive strippers...

 

Festool sander:

An expensive and large electric sander with expensive single-source paper, what's not to like?

Really, this is a *nice* tool, it's smooth, quiet, and powerful, as it should be for $600 and another $300 for a vacuum to go with it plus over $2 for a disc of paper.

The paper is a drawback since it's got a funny hole pattern and isn't actually especially good paper compared to what I'm used to.

But how does it work?

Well, it works OK. The dust collection is nothing short of amazing and the tool has very low vibration. Paper life is pretty good (they are using better paper than for the RS400). Material removal wasn't really any better than the Dynabrade sander but the tool is much heavier and the 6" is actually a lot less nimble than the 5" sander so it is more work to use overall. The surface finish is nice but I don't care for this project since flat paint is to be used.

Of course, the time saved on cleanup should count for something and if I didn't have the compressor to run the pneumatic sander that might make it worthwhile. I used 80 grit since I had nothing coarser, I'd suggest trying 60 grit as a starting point.

time 6:40 to pretty good, 7:20 to a standard even cleaner than the others.

 

Festool pad sander RS400EQ

I don't like this sander that much because it uses uncommon (single-source in the US at least) paper that is very well bonded but doesn't cut very well. that takes a lot of the joy out of an otherwise nice tool that has pretty low vibration and excellent dust extraction.

time 8:09 for a good removal.

 

Snap-on tools straight-line sander.

I bought this many years ago and have found very little use for the tool, It is good for smoothing body filler though. I had hoped it might finally find another function. Nope. Not as bone-jarring as a needle scaler but still a tool that will destroy your nervous system from vibration in short order. It unsurprisingly was the flattest surface and least manouverable sander I've tried so far. The paper was cheap and it did work. If you were going to use water it might be more worth it.

Time 9:51

 

It is interesting that most of the sanders take a pretty similar amount of time to do a pretty similar job with the same grit paper. I suppose this is helpful because you hopefully can work out removal rate with different sanders and grits and have it scale.

Thinking of making paper last and such, I'm tempted to try a wet slurry setup with my pneumatics but since I'd want to try that outside it will have to wait.

Edited July 7, 2015 by teletech