snowtracdave Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I've seen a few heavy MV's (amongst others) at shows carrying Agricultural class tax discs . Can anyone enlighten me on the ins & outs of running a vehicle in this category . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Marmite!! Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I've seen a few heavy MV's (amongst others) at shows carrying Agricultural class tax discs . Can anyone enlighten me on the ins & outs of running a vehicle in this category . Can't take them on the motorway.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mark Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 You can use red diesel, if it's a diesel of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Marmite!! Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 You can use red diesel, if it's a diesel of course No you can't if you use it on the road for Non-Agricultral use.. http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2006/06/08/91743/red-or-dead-your-red-diesel-questions-answered.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mark Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I agree but most heavy MV's are taken to a show on low loaders and driven round sites and probably use red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 fv1609 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 No you can't if you use it on the road for Non-Agricultral use.. http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2006/06/08/91743/red-or-dead-your-red-diesel-questions-answered.html Going into the Great Dorset Steam Fair vehicles were being checked by Customs & Excise for red diesel. I wasn't stopped as I think the Hornet looked too much of a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 snowtracdave Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Yes , I've heard some stories of checks being made on vintage tractors whilst on display at a show and use of red diesel not being permitted because that doesn't actually constitute agricultural use . Am I right in thinking that there are restrictions on the distance you can travel if you're taxed agricultural ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Marmite!! Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Yes , I've heard some stories of checks being made on vintage tractors whilst on display at a show and use of red diesel not being permitted because that doesn't actually constitute agricultural use . Am I right in thinking that there are restrictions on the distance you can travel if you're taxed agricultural ? I was talking to a chap the other week, he restores tractors & told me it's illegal to use red diesel in them as they are no longer used for agricultural use & that it's not uncommon for tanks to be dipped at shows.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ian2b Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Can you use red diesel if you only use the vehicle off road like at shows etc and not on the road at all ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Marmite!! Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Can you use red diesel if you only use the vehicle off road like at shows etc and not on the road at all ?. According to the chap I was speaking to, NO only if it's being used for agricultural use, that's why they are visiting so many shows to dip the tanks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ArtistsRifles Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Playing devils advocate here for a moment - what about if you had the scenario where a garage cocked up the deliveries and had petrol pumped into the red diesel storage tanks. An MV owner then took the contaminated fuel off the garages hands and ran it in his vehicle for a show where the C&E people dipped the tank. Would he get nicked??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Marmite!! Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Playing devils advocate here for a moment - what about if you had the scenario where a garage hened up the deliveries and had petrol pumped into the red diesel storage tanks. An MV owner then took the contaminated fuel off the garages hands and ran it in his vehicle for a show where the C&E people dipped the tank. Would he get nicked??? Your talking about contaminated fuel?? legally they have to it disposed by a licenced contractor.. not give it away to MV owners :whistle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ArtistsRifles Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I know - that's why the question intrigued me............ :-) :-) :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mark Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Playing devils advocate here for a moment - what about if you had the scenario where a garage hened up the deliveries and had petrol pumped into the red diesel storage tanks. An MV owner then took the contaminated fuel off the garages hands and ran it in his vehicle for a show where the C&E people dipped the tank. Would he get nicked??? Be a close call seeing as the VAT has already been paid at the pump and no proof of where the contam came from or if you had mixed it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ArtistsRifles Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 That's more or less what I had in mind Mark - which leads nicely to the follow-on question: If you have an arrangement with a couple of places to take any contam - do you get anu sort of signed-off paperwork that could be presented as proof that , effectively, the correct duty has been paid??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 sirhc Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Neil, I had about 1000 litres of contaminated fuel from an accident recovery place, I turned up with my own barrels and emptied theirs. No money or paperwork changed hands. I think it would be like that anywhere you go. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ArtistsRifles Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Thanks Chris :-) As Stalwarts apparently don't fare too well on contam it's something I've never had to worry about myself - but have always been curious about! This thread just brought the curiosity back to the top of the pile!! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 fv1609 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Yes but when did you last see a garage where you could be given the opportunity to accidentally fill up with red diesel? Given that this salvaged contaminated fuel comes from garages who have contracts with the AA/RAC to come to the rescue of nitwit ordinary motorists who frequent ordinary filling stations, the chance of there being red diesil is remote. Besides you can always inspect the colour of salvaged fuel & steer clear of pink/red stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ArtistsRifles Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 It's uncanny timing - but I'd heard within the last few weeks of a couple of garages that had had the delivery tankers discharge into the wrong storage tanks... Something else that had brought the curiosity bubbling back up.. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mark Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 That's more or less what I had in mind Mark - which leads nicely to the follow-on question: If you have an arrangement with a couple of places to take any contam - do you get anu sort of signed-off paperwork that could be presented as proof that , effectively, the correct duty has been paid??? I have that arrangement and they are just glad to get rid of it as it costs them money, as long as you are sensible it's ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Richard Grosvenor Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Playing devils advocate here for a moment - what about if you had the scenario where a garage hened up the deliveries and had petrol pumped into the red diesel storage tanks. An MV owner then took the contaminated fuel off the garages hands and ran it in his vehicle for a show where the C&E people dipped the tank. Would he get nicked??? Well a few years ago a garage near us did have Red Diesel in their white diesel tanks and it was no accident. The garage was seriously short of money and it was a last ditch attempt to stay in business. It wasn't found out until a lorry was stopped by VOSA at Newark which is about 60 miles from us. When they dipped his tanks they were full of red diesel. The driver then produced the receipt for near enough a full tank of white diesel purchased an hour or so earlier and his tacho showed that he was telling the truth and had come straight from the garage. Needless to say, the garage soon went out of business and the innocent driver went on his way without charge. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 alcashj94 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 OK, here's a slightly different question re red deisel. My MV is a crane, not had it on the road for some while but am just looking to re-licence it so I can maybe attend a couple of shows. Last time it was licenced it was on a 'Q' plate and 'mobile crane' class. The current class for cranes is 'special vehicle' and costs a fair bit more than I used to pay so I am thinking of re-registering it as 'historic vehicle' with a new reg etc and therefore no licence fee (1966 build so it qualifies). The question I can't get a straight answer to at the moment is what fuel will I have to use with a 'historic vehicle' licence, its still physically a crane but one person at the DVLA office said it would have to use white diesel whilst another on a different visit told me red! I keep it on a private site and it sees some use throughout the year so if I will need to use white for the odd trip on the road it would put me off the show idea as I dont want to have to buy white diesel for all the other use. Anyone come across this sort of situation before? Allan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 ackack Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 If you go to the hmrc website it is all in black and white ( if you can understand it ) the webpage is at http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document'>http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document'>http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000164&propertyType=document Or do a search for "Fuel for road vehicles, Notice 75" at http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 alcashj94 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Yes, have read that document several times before and it specifically says in section 8.9 that mobile cranes are exempt. The confusion comes if it is then licensed on a 'historic vehicle' license, one person at the DVLA office said that means the vehicle is no longer a crane for the purposes of the fuel regs, however another told me it would still be exempt. Think I need to talk to someone other than the counter staff, there seem to be too many regs getting mixed together to allow a simple answer in this case! Allan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 TooTallMike Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Taxation class and vehicle type are not the same thing. It can physically be a mobile crane and still be taxed as a historic vehicle. This doesn't stop it from being a crane so according to the letter of the law you can use red. It boils down to the question of how much you fancy becoming a test case since this is a very grey area. (Plus since you have access to red diesel VOSA may well be keeping an eye on your usage already.) I suggest you talk to VOSA since they are the ones who carry out these types of inspections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Tugger Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 On this red Diesel topic (which, with the derogation of marine red, may soon become harder to buy from a pump); There is no reason why, if a vehicle is solely used off the highway (trailered to and from events) you cannot use red diesel (gas oil) because the only tax not applied is the road duty. You are free to use red in plant that remaines on site, builders will often use red on diggers and things that get transported site to site. C&E can only dip your tanks if they have stong suspicion or proof that the vehicle has been on the road ( Chieftan owners can sleep easy then ;-)) However there does seem to be a 'get out' of sorts; As we experienced during the big fuel crisis about 5 years ago some folks at work could only get red diesel to run their cars, so a phone call to the bods at Customs house revealed that if they popped along with a reciept for how much red they had filled with, they could pay the road duty over the counter and were then issued with a reciept to prove it if stopped,they take your milage and assume a distance by which you should have used it by (but how many tracked vehicles have odometers :dunno:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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snowtracdave
I've seen a few heavy MV's (amongst others) at shows carrying Agricultural class tax discs . Can anyone enlighten me on the ins & outs of running a vehicle in this category .
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