question Sabre Chain Gun

[timbo]

These seem to have a poor reputation, so:

 

How was it supposed to work ?

What was the point ?

What were the problems ?

Was it ever fitted to any other vehicles ?

 

Ta

[eddy8men]

i touched breifly on the chain gun while doing an upgrader course at bordon, the gun working parts were operated by a motorbike chain so it didn't rely on the blowback from the round, however if a round did not fire for whatever reason it would not stop the gun it would be pushed up the ejection tube with the other spent cases to be pushed out of the turret, the trouble was a couple of live rounds in the ejection tube would sometimes fire creating a bit of a mess. that was the jist of it but as i said i never got to grips with the gun, more of an introduction should the need arise to repair one one day.

 

rick

[ferretfixer]

They are a VERY complicated item to put back together once you have stripped on down. If you do not assemble them correctly, they will jam or not work. There is a sequence of assembly that MUST be followed. The gun when assembling must be 'Timed' correctly. It is Electrically fired & cables do get pulled, caught, ripped from sockets. Which is one of the main problems of reliability. Once timed & set up. They are simple to opperate & I have found them very reliable. They are manufactured in the US & very expensive. Misfires dont matter, because it is like a revolver action. The Rotor rotates & chambers a round. It is fired & the case ejected down a tube & exits the spent round tube outside the vehicle. If a round is unfired, it is extracted & ejected along with the empties. In a straight line out the ejection tube. The rate of fire is so quick, you would be lucky to discern a misfired round & probably wouldnt even notice it! Like all equipment, servicing & Lubrication is the key to reliability. One of the features that is excellent on this Weapon is the extremley rapid Barrel change method to prevent overheating. essential on such a rapidly firing weapon! I have no knowlege of this equipments lack of reliability in service myself. Obviously you have heard this 'Somewhere' can you expand on what source you derived this information?

Troops can be very heavy handed with certain gear, & poor handling CAN & DOES Rsult in damage if incorrect methods are utilised. Always easier to blame equipment rather than admit a mistake! Clarification as to what sort of area of 'Unreliability' would be good for a better explaination.

I have heard of a situation, where as Rick has stated. IF, a COUPLE of live rounds were going down the ejection tube. Because of the Bullet head touching the base primer of the other. One of the rounds was fired & caused the ejection tube to burst & the resulting pile up of empty case. Jammed the gun. I heard ALSO at Bordon, this was an isolated incident.

 

This weapon would NOT remain in Service so long. IF, after certain mods were effected. It was Still 'Allegedly' Unreliable.

People lives are on the Line with this sort of item, somthing that cannot be ignored! :shocked:

Edited June 16, 2011 by ferretfixer

[sirhc]

Tim,

 

I have the manuals and training video. Will post something later when at home. They are also fitted to Warrior and Challenger 2. Possibly some helicopters too.

 

Chris

[Bazz]

When we had Sabre I found the main problem was when they wer being assembled some people put the selector on it to safe??, so when they operated the weapon it would cycle but the roudns were unfired and so had to be restripped and sorted. Also in the vehs you had to unbox the linked rounds and rebox them as the feed was link down, unlike GPMG which is link up. We had a storage problem with hot barrels, as the spare barrel holder was alumimimum it would warp when you put a very hot barrel in it. The problem was solved (my idea) we attached a length of scaffold pipe to the left side of the Cmdrs seat and put the barrel in there until cool enough to put it into the holder. Personally i thought it was an ok wpn if used properly and looked after. the main faults, it was electric so if your Batts were flat you couldn't use it and you couldn't dismount it for use, ie OP's etc.

[Bazz]

L94A1

When we had Sabre I found the main problem was when they were being assembled some people put the selector on it to safe??, so when they operated the weapon it would cycle but the roudns were unfired and so had to be restripped and sorted. Also in the vehs you had to unbox the linked rounds and rebox them as the feed was link down, unlike GPMG which is link up. We had a storage problem with hot barrels, as the spare barrel holder was alumimimum it would warp when you put a very hot barrel in it. The problem was solved (my idea) we attached a length of scaffold pipe to the left side of the Cmdrs seat and put the barrel in there until cool enough to put it into the holder. Personally i thought it was an ok wpn if used properly and looked after. the main faults, it was electric so if your Batts were flat you couldn't use it  and you couldn't dismount it for use, ie OP's etc.

[Turret_Monster]

Sadly (or not) chain guns disappeared off the tank park along with Sabres very soon after I joined up. I was, however, always led to believe that it's problems stemmed from it being installed 'upside down' due to the lack of space in the turret and that this could lead to stoppages.

[sirhc]

Some photos and info... there is way too much in the manuals etc to post here.

 

Chris

[Bazz]

the problem with the mounting was the fact that it was higher thanj the ready tray for the box of link, so had to drag the ammo out of the bax and up and over into the gun. Thes4e actions could lead to a stoppage if you didn't keep an eye on the belt and helped to pull it out and guide into the feed.

[timbo]

Many thanks for comments..

 

To be honest not sure where I got this perception from...maybe just picked up from odd comments over the years. That is mainly why I asked the qn - to get peoples opinions.

 

Didn't realise these were also used on Warrior and Chally 2.

 

Also thanks Chris for pics - very interesting to see the real thing as you cant get much of a sense of it from the dummy barrel shroud on my Sabre !!

[antarmike]

These seem to have a poor reputation, so:

 

What were the problems ?

Ta

According to Wiki.... Problems with the electrical systems in the Warrior IFV have caused the weapon to fire without warning several times, resulting in the army issuing a safety notice. In at least one incident this has resulted in injury to a British soldier and in others injuries to civilians. The MoD denied the problem initially.

 

Additionally, the Challenger 2 mounting of the weapon cannot be accurately aimed using the main sight below a minimum range of 200 metres, which has led to at least one death from "friendly fire".

[ferretfixer]

According to Wiki.... Problems with the electrical systems in the Warrior IFV have caused the weapon to fire without warning several times, resulting in the army issuing a safety notice. In at least one incident this has resulted in injury to a British soldier and in others injuries to civilians. The MoD denied the problem initially.

 

Additionally, the Challenger 2 mounting of the weapon cannot be accurately aimed using the main sight below a minimum range of 200 metres, which has led to at least one death from "friendly fire".

 

Thats Interesting Mike. The Gun itself is safe then, it's the Vehicles electrical system that was faulty?

When NOT being fired, there is a safety/selector switch for this weapon.

 

So, if it was not being fired imediately, the Safety position should have been selected. Bad drills there possibly, I think?

If this has actually happened & there was a defect. There WOULD have been a Mod to the system somewhere IF, it actually were a safety issue. 'Several Times' can mean more than once, IE, TWICE in actauality! :-X

 

I have not seen a blue 'Imediate' Mod sheet for this apparant defect myself in AESP's.

Anyone else got more upto date Info on this? :wow:

[andym]

Is this essentially the same gun as fitted to the M2 Bradley but in 7.62mm?

 

Andy

[timbo]

All I know is the thing is bl**dy lethal - cracked my head on it for the second time today getting out !!!!

[ferretfixer]

All I know is the thing is bl**dy lethal - cracked my head on it for the second time today getting out !!!!

 

So what happned to all those Horrible Protective helmets issued for the crew in these vehicles!................

[cpltomo]

Yea the chain gun in sabre was fun. At first it was mounted upside down so the runs were been pulled up into the gun instead of coming down so had a lot of stoppeges at first. Found the best way to remove the barrel sfter firing was with a welders glove the little y bar that came with it was not very good. And after a few stops on the ranges wait for boats to get out of the way at castlemartin found out which verable pod ajusted the speed of the gun which was fun :-D:cool2:. Other good thing was using blanks as you could aim the blank cases to hit other vechicles which was also fun on exercise. Yea it was a pain to strip also at first it was trying to get use to the delay when you fired till when the first round came out.

[Bazz]

If i've got my Inst head on right was there not a firing of a round during the unload as there was always a fed but unfired round in the chamber and the only way to remove it was to fire it???

[ferretfixer]

If i've got my Inst head on right was there not a firing of a round during the unload as there was always a fed but unfired round in the chamber and the only way to remove it was to fire it???

 

Bazz, if that was the case. Then Bad Drills again! The Safety switch Isolates the firing circuit. The gun could 'Dry Fire' in this mode. IE: Fuction/cycle, but NOT fire. As the circuit SHOULD be open with the selctor switch as SAFE. :shocked:

[cpltomo]

If i've got my Inst head on right was there not a firing of a round during the unload as there was always a fed but unfired round in the chamber and the only way to remove it was to fire it???

 

Yes you are right we did fire off the last rounds after a shoot as the barrel would have a round in it as well as in the gun itself. We never used the cycle switch as it was not part of the drill ( It was only use by helos to empty the gun before landing). And if you woiund it round with the dry fire handle it would fire off the rounds in the gun.

[ferretfixer]

Yes you are right we did fire off the last rounds after a shoot as the barrel would have a round in it as well as in the gun itself. We never used the cycle switch as it was not part of the drill ( It was only use by helos to empty the gun before landing). And if you woiund it round with the dry fire handle it would fire off the rounds in the gun.

 

Yes, your quite right. The gun, to be precise, Is ELECTRICALLY Driven. BUT, MECHANICALY Fired. This may sound confusing to some, but it is simple really. The Vehicles electrical system supplies Voltage to the guns 24v Motor. As the gun has a Chain in the system to drive the operating mech. The ACTUAL firing act is performed by a Mechanical Firing pin that strikes the percussion cap in the base of the round to fire it. So yes, with the safety switch set at safe the gun SHOULD not fire. BUT, there is indeed a round in the chamber if a live belt of Ammo is removed. Hence Tommo's comment of using a 'Dry Fire' Handle. This not quite quite accurate though. It's a MECHANICAL Operating Handle. IE: When fitted on the end shaft stub. You can MANUALY function cycle the Weapon. Any rounds remaing WILL be Mechanicaly fired.

The term 'Dry Fire', is more correctly applied to ANY weapon that rotates through a complete operating cycle mechanicaly.

WITHOUT using ANY live Ammo. IE: Cock, Feed, Lock, Fire, Unlock, Extract, Eject.

INERT Drill Rounds Could be utilised in 'Dry Firing'.

[Bazz]

The main problem we had when training, is that due to the feed mechanism tne links on the drill rounds were stretched so you could only use them once and it was difficult at times to get replacement links.