Regiment Identification on a FV1611 from Northern Ireland

[Rover8FFR]

Does anyone have any ideas as to what these markings on my new toy stand for.

 

There is also the remnance of another decal/ sign in the middle above the 2 visible ones hand painted??

 

Help!:undecided:

[fv1609]

Wayne I don't know that your Humber was ever in N.Ireland. As an unmodified Mk 1 it was very likely one of the many sold off circa 1967. BAOR is the most likely history for the markings.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne I don't know that your Humber was ever in N.Ireland. As an unmodified Mk 1 it was very likely one of the many sold off circa 1967. BAOR is the most likely history for the markings.

 

There goes my ignorance again.......Think Pig and automatically think NI conflict...

 

When they were sold off weren't they all brought back for NI????

 

Thanks Clive.....Whats the chances of tracing history on such an old vehicle as Deepcut threw up a fat ZERO for my 63 Rover 8 24vFFR????:-(

[Peter4456]

Wayne,

 

It looks to me like the 'All Seeing Eye' of the Guards and Guards Armoured Division, but these were First and Second World War respectively and I can't find any Post war or BAOR reference to them. I could easily be wrong, but are these original markings? - Fingers crossed for a result from Deepcut!!

 

Peter,

 

Ferret Mk 2/3, 03 CC 42

[fv1609]

When they were sold off weren't they all brought back for NI????(

 

No only about 200 were repurchased as stop gap in the lead up to Op Bracelet, when the main fleet was being uparmoured to produce 487 Mk 2 Pigs.

 

The repurchased Pigs went through Op Marble that found it took twice as long to get these serviceable than originally estimated. One of the findings was that the mods to the lubricators on the Tracta housings had not been carried out as instructed in earlier EMERs.

 

 

 

Whats the chances of tracing history on such an old vehicle as Deepcut threw up a fat ZERO for my 63 Rover 8 24vFFR????:-(

 

When you visit you will see I have several sources of archives. I should be able to tell you when it went into service as a FV1601, the chassis no, the engine no, the receipt voucher no. at the depot, the location of the depot, possibly who it was struck off to, the date it was struck off, the date of the sale, the sale no, the lot no. & possible the price. That was generally £40, whereas a GS was about £80 & sold by dealers for £250. But nobody really wanted Pigs!

 

We know it was a ROF Woolwich one, but not the date of conversion but judging by the ROF serial no. it would have been in the earlier part of the 1958-60 period when Pigs were manufactured. The fact that it has a Union Flag sticker shows it was in BAOR. The Units should be deduceable from the badges you have. It is just possible I may have a picture of it in service.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne,

 

It looks to me like the 'All Seeing Eye' of the Guards and Guards Armoured Division, but these were First and Second World War respectively and I can't find any Post war or BAOR reference to them. I could easily be wrong, but are these original markings? - Fingers crossed for a result from Deepcut!!

 

Peter,

 

Ferret Mk 2/3, 03 CC 42

 

If Deepcut doesn't work then it may be that Clive has answers if I am lucky.

 

I have asked my CEO at Hereford TA centre if it means anything to him as he is 1st Grenadier Guards and knows more than most about the guards. He also served in NI. Fingers crossed.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Rover8FFR

[Rover8FFR]

When you visit you will see I have several sources of archives. I should be able to tell you when it went into service as a FV1601, the chassis no, the engine no, the receipt voucher no. at the depot, the location of the depot, possibly who it was struck off to, the date it was struck off, the date of the sale, the sale no, the lot no. & possible the price. That was generally £40, whereas a GS was about £80 & sold by dealers for £250. But nobody really wanted Pigs!

 

We know it was a ROF Woolwich one, but not the date of conversion but judging by the ROF serial no. it would have been in the earlier part of the 1958-60 period when Pigs were manufactured. The fact that it has a Union Flag sticker shows it was in BAOR. The Units should be deduceable from the badges you have. It is just possible I may have a picture of it in service.

 

Looks like a visit will be required! I guess getting the reg/ engine number next Tuesday is the starter for 10 to help you pin this down with me???

[AlienFTM]

Wild guess mode. I saw the eye and immediately thought 4RTR Chinese Eye (dating right back to the Great War iirc). Seeing the Roman IV underneath probably encouraged the idea. However, then reading Guards Armoured Division I suspect that, as usual, I am wrong: it looks more like Guards Armoured than 4RTR.

 

 

When I see a square, I automatically think B Squadron / Company. Seeing the number 7 within suggests this might be the tac sign for a vehicle in 7 Troop / Platoon in B Squadron / Company of a unit which numbered troops or platoons consecutively through squadrons / companies rather than the usual state of affairs where each squadron / company has subunits numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. It isn't strictly correct as per Signals Communications in the Army, Volume 2, Voice Procedure, but there used to be a lot of idiosyncrasy in the British Regimental System which in the last decade has sadly been dreadfully eroded.

 

Do we think maybe the Pig might have been anachronistically marked Guards Armoured Division for a film? Not that I can think of a film that referred to GAD or used Pigs. Just a thought.

 

 

[fv1609]

Do we think maybe the Pig might have been anachronistically marked Guards Armoured Division for a film? Not that I can think of a film that referred to GAD or used Pigs. Just a thought.

[/left]

 

I think you may have a valid point there. Looking in my book of PW markings the eye with the blue background in that red frame is depicted just as it is on the vehicle. But it has "I" below the eye & the book credits it as 1st Guards. When I saw Wayne's picture I immediately assumed it was 4th Guards as the symbol was familiar.

 

Now although there are symbols for 2nd, 3rd, 5th & 6th which are entirely different there is no symbol for 4th Guards. Perhaps they were no longer in existence & this was dreamed up for a film?

 

Of the 3 Pigs that Dale had, 2 were marked up & used for NI filming. In fact one appeared in Harry's Game now the penny is dropping I'm pretty sure that this Pig was used in a Minder episode. In fact I think it was a Christmas special. I think Richard Briers was some country gent/land owner who had built up a private army which he trained on his country estate.

 

I can remember Arthur Daley being given a very rough ride in the Pig & being shaken around & complaining to Terry that he wanted to get out! Somewhere Dale had this on tape, I don't know if we could find it?

[fv1609]

I'm pretty sure that this Pig was used in a Minder episode. In fact I think it was a Christmas special. I think Richard Briers was some country gent/land owner who had built up a private army which he trained on his country estate.

 

I can remember Arthur Daley being given a very rough ride in the Pig & being shaken around & complaining to Terry that he wanted to get out! Somewhere Dale had this on tape, I don't know if we could find it?

 

From the Amazon site:

 

The second disc features An Officer & a Car Salesman which went out on 26 December 1988 and features guest stars Richard Briers (The Good Life & Ever Decreasing Circles), Diana Quick and this is also the last time Patrick Malahide appears in Minder as Chisholm, this time Terry has a spell in prison after being found in possession of some hooky videos that Arthur left in his flat, it looks as though their partnership is finished. Then Terry gets a job working for Caplan, an ex-army colonel who runs a survivalist school who Arthur is supplying army surplus equipment to, which reunites the pair when they stumble across a plot by Caplan and his men to rob a security van.

 

I think the Pig was to have been used in the robbery.

[Rover8FFR]

From the Amazon site:

 

The second disc features An Officer & a Car Salesman which went out on 26 December 1988 and features guest stars Richard Briers (The Good Life & Ever Decreasing Circles), Diana Quick and this is also the last time Patrick Malahide appears in Minder as Chisholm, this time Terry has a spell in prison after being found in possession of some hooky videos that Arthur left in his flat, it looks as though their partnership is finished. Then Terry gets a job working for Caplan, an ex-army colonel who runs a survivalist school who Arthur is supplying army surplus equipment to, which reunites the pair when they stumble across a plot by Caplan and his men to rob a security van.

 

I think the Pig was to have been used in the robbery.

 

This wont be on the army record card at Deepcut will it? LoL:-D.

 

I have no idea what effect this makes on my purchase. Which is more famous military or celebrity roots. I find the thought of a military vehicle as a film star enchanting, but it's not quite band of brothers is it!

 

The plot thickens!

 

I will try and research the Minder archives also just for the novelty factor.

[fv1609]

I will try and research the Minder archives also just for the novelty factor.

 

I got the info from an Amazon write up of a 3-DVD set of shows that included the Christmas special. I think there was a good minute or so of Pig shots with it trundling along a country lane & quite a bit the interior with Arthur Daley getting a bit nervous about the journey as they headed off to catch Richard Briers in his HQ.

[Rover8FFR]

I got the info from an Amazon write up of a 3-DVD set of shows that included the Christmas special. I think there was a good minute or so of Pig shots with it trundling along a country lane & quite a bit the interior with Arthur Daley getting a bit nervous about the journey as they headed off to catch Richard Briers in his HQ.

 

If my FV1611A is one of these vehicles. How can we prove it?? Does it cover any provenance or just novelty? I haven't got a clue.:nut:

[Rover8FFR]

Just a thought here! If the number 7 and 'all seeing eye' decals are to suit a TV role then in the middle of the 2 decals shows the feint remains of another symbol under the paint.

 

Also Clive if these decals were painted for TV then was the union jack also, meaning that the BAOR thing might be non-applicable??????????????

 

I guess we need that data plate/ engine number now as this is all supposition!:confused:

[fv1609]

It is quite possible that the theatrical markings are adaptations of genuine markings that were there originally. In that there might have been a 1st Guards badge there & by repainting it as 4th which may no longer exist then it would cause no legal problems. Or there may be markings underneath that acted as an inspiration as to how this was going to be marked up.

 

The Union Flag sticker is probably genuine there would be one as well at the rear often on Pigs centrally near the apex of the roof. The two main places of employment were Cyprus or BAOR, unless there is any sand paint underneath then BAOR is a good bet.

 

Whether it was used by Arthur Daley, Dr Who or in a newsreel about BAOR adds no value at all. But it does add interest & individuality to your vehicle. When it appears on the show circuit the fact that it has had a TV appearance will interest the public, who often wonder were these film vehicles come from & the fact they are real vehicles rather than plywood replicas built on a transit van or something.

 

You'll need to do rubbing down very carefully to see what lurks underneath. Not just the obvious places, on one Pig I found yellow discs painted on the side doors. These were bridging signs not usually seen on the sides of vehicles although this is provided for in the regulations.

 

One thing to remember whatever other markings do surface, they may not have necessarily been visible all at the same time. Sometimes you see MVs with large numbers of markings all that were genuinely found on the vehicle, but were not displayed all at the same time.

[Rover8FFR]

Any ideas on the feint markings under the BAOR jack as they appear to sit in older paint layers Clive??

 

I agree that having a slant on a level that Joe public can relate to is a good ice breaker at the shows and helps people relate to something closer in their lives/ history without being military connected. Creates a little nostalgia at least....A bit like the old Land Rover 101's deveopled for the film Judge Dread.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Rover8FFR

[fv1609]

We need to see the DVD to verify it is the same Pig. I know Dale taped the episode & was very keen as it was more than just a split second appearance. But I'm just wondering now was it Chris Wilikinson's Pig, although I know that had a broken axle at one stage? I can't make much of the other marking, but those two badges either side is the correct place for the time.

[Rover8FFR]

The faded upper inner insignia appears to have some folded wings, but I have no idea as to what they are. If they are genuine but appear to be under old paint.

 

I agree that the rubbing down will be a sensitive stage to try and identify the hidden history if available.

 

You mentioned earlier the issue of pressure washing and the rad shroud. Have you ever used one of these steam cleaner contraptions / bottle of Gunk instead to clean engine bay down??

[Rover8FFR]

We need to see the DVD to verify it is the same Pig. I know Dale taped the episode & was very keen as it was more than just a split second appearance. But I'm just wondering now was it Chris Wilikinson's Pig, although I know that had a broken axle at one stage? I can't make much of the other marking, but those two badges either side is the correct place for the time.

 

Can you confirm the actual episode to obtain a copy of correct DVD. Tried a few searches but just mentioned TV show, TV show on search engine etc. Did you have a link Clive?

[Degsy]

The episode is titled 'An Officer and a Car Salesman' shown on 26th Dec 1988 as a Christmas special.

If you go to http://www.Minder.org you will find a link to Amazon for the DVD.

[Rover8FFR]

We need to see the DVD to verify it is the same Pig. I know Dale taped the episode & was very keen as it was more than just a split second appearance. But I'm just wondering now was it Chris Wilikinson's Pig, although I know that had a broken axle at one stage? I can't make much of the other marking, but those two badges either side is the correct place for the time.

 

Clive the FV 1611 you sent an image of in another thread (origins of Humber Pig) has the makings of identical markings that back in the day would have been hand painted like mine.

 

I am begining to believe that the Minder episode copied a genuine regiments insignia, albeit the 1st Guards? etc and later 4th Guards may be the copyright overule. But as the 4th Guards existed would that to not be improper????

[fv1609]

Clive the FV 1611 you sent an image of in another thread (origins of Humber Pig) has the makings of identical markings that back in the day would have been hand painted like mine.

 

 

Wayne, I was speaking to a collector in Sussex who incidentally has a collection of vehicles I find more interesting than in the Tank Museum, simply because it comprises exclusively British postwar tracked & wheeled vehicles. I think he has 5 Humbers for a start!

 

Anyway I was discussing the markings on your Pig & he thinks that it may have been owned by the same person who has the similarly marked vehicle. So there is the possibility that the markings are to the owners fancy or one may be copied from the other,

 

I'm still unsure which Pig it was that was used in Minder so don't go buying the DVD if I've got it wrong! One of Dale's Pigs was used in Harry's Game. I did watch the episode but I recall there was not much footage.

 

But I agree that this is 1st Guards & marking it as IV might side step misrepresentation problems if that was not their particular badge.. Even so its a good talking point better than just plain paint & indeed someone has gone to this trouble to mark it in this way, it is likely that it was based on genuine markings which Mk 1 Pigs would have carried.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne, I was speaking to a collector in Sussex who incidentally has a collection of vehicles I find more interesting than in the Tank Museum, simply because it comprises exclusively British postwar tracked & wheeled vehicles. I think he has 5 Humbers for a start!

 

Anyway I was discussing the markings on your Pig & he thinks that it may have been owned by the same person who has the similarly marked vehicle. So there is the possibility that the markings are to the owners fancy or one may be copied from the other,

 

I'm still unsure which Pig it was that was used in Minder so don't go buying the DVD if I've got it wrong! One of Dale's Pigs was used in Harry's Game. I did watch the episode but I recall there was not much footage.

 

But I agree that this is 1st Guards & marking it as IV might side step misrepresentation problems if that was not their particular badge.. Even so its a good talking point better than just plain paint & indeed someone has gone to this trouble to mark it in this way, it is likely that it was based on genuine markings which Mk 1 Pigs would have carried.

 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm! One to continue in the snug over a Shandy.

 

If we can trace the original regt then I would re-instate those markings!

 

I think that I tread lightly when I rub back the paint before respray in DBG as it may show something. I am still intrested in the feint logo under union flag that may be more genuine. The folded wings suggestion I can agree with and see! :undecided:

[Blackpowder44]

IV Guards Brigade did exist, look them up on Google. Pictured below are two versions of their formation sign. One is woven cotton and the other is silk. John.

[fv1609]

John that's excellent news. I was a bit thrown as it is similar to 1st Guards & 2, 3, 5 & 6 Guards appear in my book but with quite different insignia. I'm sure Wayne will be much relieved.