Crossley RFC Tender

[mtskull]

Stow Maries , Great War Society, Sopwith Pup and Motor Transport.

Photo Credit: Steve Le Grys

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Military vehicles in a spot-on authentic setting, being used for the same purpose as they were back in the day; Absolutely bl**dy brilliant!

Edited May 13, 2014 by mtskull

[Charawacky]

A couple more

[Redherring]

If I wasn't sure before, I'm convinced now. Surely that's Captain Mannering with the specs? A couple of the other chaps look familiar too???

[RAFMT]

One of them looks very familiar because i have the misfortune of working with him :embarrassed:

[OLAF]

That looks fantastic

 

Not sure if this will help, but if you are still keen on a DVII fuselage, there is apparently someone in the UK building one.

It was news to me, but on the CAA registration site there is a notice of a DVII project -

 

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detail&aircrafttype=fokker&dataindex=12

 

This might be a part-scale replica (there's a company in the US that makes kits, some full-scale, some smaller, built along ultralight principles, and they have a UK importer), but the weight suggests to me that this is/will be a full-scale.

 

Could be there's already a fuselage out there that you could borrow - or more probably someone who can give you some real world feedback on making one.

[OLAF]

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but a few years ago the Museum of Army flying at Middle Wallop (I think) had a mobile exhibit of some kind where they'd have some ground personnel and part of a fake 2-seater fuselage. I remember seeing them at an English Heritage event at Kelmarsh Hall several years back.

 

They provided some ground 'context' for an aerial display by these super people - http://www.greatwardisplayteam.com/.

Not sure if it was a team-up, or just the co-location of the events' WW1 bits components.

[Charawacky]

Thank you for your comments,

 

Being able to use the pup really brought home the necessity to have a fuselage as part of the exhibit.

I had not realised the pup had its wings removed until I stored the Tender at Stow after the Brighton run. If I had known it would have been very special to have had it all together for the Brighton Run.

 

Image Steve Le Grys

[RAFMT]

If aircraft type isn't a problem, then I'm sure there's some plans at work that may be of use. I'll have a look.

[FRAFM]

Some of you may be aware that the Volunteers at the RAF Museum have been working to get their Crossley Tender back into running order. Although the vehicle is complete there were a number of bits that needed repair or replacement due to the lack of use for 40 years. The water pump, itself a modification from the original 20/25 spec which would have been fitted to the timing housing, needed freeing and the timing chain needed to be replaced. due to wear. All the suspension greasers had been peened in place (presumably to prevent theft) and had to be carefully removed straightened and re-tapped before refitting. Oils which appeared to be clean and new on the surface had congealed into a grease like substance in the sumps of the engine and gearbox and took a lot of effort to clean out. However all these were minor issues compared with the state of the engine cylinder blocks.

 

 

The museum records state that the tender was driven from Cecil Bendall's premises in Hitchin to RAF Henlow – about 5-10 miles. From there it was transported to RAF St Athan in S Wales where it was refurbished and the current replica RFC body fabricated and fitted. Because of this we didn't expect to find major mechanical problems after resolving the congealed oil, water pump and timing chain. There were signs of successful weld repairs to the tops of both blocks but that was all. Unfortunately this wasn't the case. When we filled the cooling system with water to check the rebuilt water pump we noticed a drip from the rear block, over the valve chest. As there is no join in this area we looked more closely and discovered a crack from an attempted weld repair. Further investigation uncovered many more cracks, unsuccessful weld repairs and several applications of “JB Weld” or similar. Nothing prepared us for the biggest problem though when we discovered that both blocks had been cut open. The rear had been unsuccessfully welded back and the front had had the excised plate refitted with caulk or similar. It was clear that the engine would not run, or would only run for a very short time, with these problems.

 

 

At this stage it seemed that it would not be possible to restore the Crossley to running condition as major repairs had not been included in the Museum's project budget. However with the aid of an extremely generous donation from one of the Friends of the RAF Museum (himself a volunteer) the blocks were recently repaired using a cold, metal stitching procedure.

 

 

The engine has now been substantially rebuilt and is on course to be run before the end of the month. If there are no more insurmountable problems we plan to run it at the Worshipful Company of Carmen's cart Marking Ceremony at the Guildhall, City of London in July. After that it will join the Museum's Ford Model T Tender, which is already running, and the Triumph H motorcycle (another rebuild to running condition project) supporting the Museum's major 1914 – 1918 exhibition in the Grahame White Factory due to open at the end of this year.

Edited June 1, 2014 by FRAFM
photos added

[Charawacky]

Good luck on starting the engine.

This is a strong, simple engine design, introduced in 1909.

Success will be all the sweeter having overcome the major unforeseen challenges.

[FRAFM]

Thanks

I'm hoping we can arrange to have both of your Crossleys and the Museum's one together one day. 3 running on the same site will be worth a look! Just hope I'm fit enough to start the Crossley when it is finally back together. The Ford Model T is bad enough and that has a smaller displacement engine.:red:

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Yes, they take a bit of swinging, I am no longer up for it, so have fitted a period self starter to both Staff Car and Tender.

 

I can lend the patterns and drawings for the correct Crossley starter support (3 castings), Motor Cradle casting and extra large non standard diameter pinion.

 

Finding the correct Rotax starter would be a challenge, I have found 2 1/2 in the last 5 years and I am on the look out for a spare or parts, any out there?

 

Below is shown the original iron support casting which bridges between engine and gearbox cross-member, from this hangs the motor cradle which is a complicated bronze or iron casting, no image available. The motor is 5" diameter so there are many alternatives if a Rotax cannot be found.

 

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Yes, they take a bit of swinging, I am no longer up for it, so have fitted a period self starter to both Staff Car and Tender.

 

I can lend the patterns and drawings for the correct Crossley starter support (3 castings), Motor Cradle casting and extra large non standard diameter pinion.

 

Finding the correct Rotax starter would be a challenge, I have found 2 1/2 in the last 5 years and I am on the look out for a spare or parts, any out there?

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Below is shown the original iron support casting which bridges between engine and gearbox cross-member, from this hangs the motor cradle which is a complicated bronze or iron casting, no image available. The motor is 5" diameter so there are many alternatives if a Rotax cannot be found.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]91857[/ATTACH]

 

could a period P&H dynamo/generator be re-engineered to suit?

[Charawacky]

I do not think the dynamo can be converted to as starter without major changes as the windings are completely different.

 

Here is an Albatross at Old Rhinebeck which I saw during a visit on Saturday when I went to look and photo graph the detail of a Fokker DV11.

 

[flandersflyer]

I do not think the dynamo can be converted to as starter without major changes as the windings are completely different.

 

Here is an Albatross at Old Rhinebeck which I saw during a visit on Saturday when I went to look and photo graph the detail of a Fokker DV11.

 

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The Albatros scout was the first of a new breed of biplanes to utilise the Mercedes D111 6 cylinder inline watercooled engine that the Luftstreitkrafte had hoped to regain air superiority with over the western front towards the end of 1916. This aircraft type was largely responsible for what became known as `bloody April`...where the German air service took a terrible toll of inferior allied types during 1917. The mercedes D111 engine had been in existance from 1914 but had been considered too powerful for the very eary aircraft types. This was a 6 cylinder inline with exposed rockers operating directly from an overhead camshaft and developing 160 HP. There were various upgrades made to this power unit to keep it competitive with newer allied types entering service but by early 1918 it was considered outdated. Early versions had the oil sump cast with a centrally mounted oil pickup and cylinders that were in pairs. Later versions of this engine had seperate cylinders and a rearward sloping oil sump with rear mounted oil feed. This was driven from a quill shaft that also drove the dual bosch magnetos, an air pump for pressurising the fuel tanks and also of course the overhead camshaft. There was a lever that could be used for manually de-compressing the engine to aid startup...this worked by rotating the camshaft slightly..thus opening the valves a little. These were considered high compression engines for the day. Starting could be either by hand over compression or by a hand operated bosch starting magneto within the cockpit. The airframe was made up of a thin gauge plywood shell....very rigid & strong...which is unfortunately more than can be said for the single spar wings (hence the small angled strut brace that can be seen on the forward edge of the lower wing). There were several incidences of the leading edges of the lower wing collapsing on the albatros scouts during steep dives...or harsh manouvering during combat. This was a problem not suffered by the Pfalz D111 hence the reason the pfalz was considered more suitable for ground strafing and `balloon busting` duties. The Pfalz used the same power unit as the albatros as did the Fokker dV11 (in its later `overcompressed` variants)

Most of Manfred von Richthofen`s 80 confirmed `kills` were acheaved flying the Albatros. The gaudy paint schemes adopted by many of the pilots of the jastas led to the nickname `flying circus`.

There are several short videos on Youtube of replica aircraft flying with original Mercedes D111 engines.

 

Here are some images of the engine showing cylinder arrangements and valves etc:

 

 

Edited June 11, 2014 by flandersflyer

[OLAF]

I do not think the dynamo can be converted to as starter without major changes as the windings are completely different.

 

Here is an Albatross at Old Rhinebeck which I saw during a visit on Saturday when I went to look and photo graph the detail of a Fokker DV11.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]92133[/ATTACH]

 

That Albatros looks lovely - they've done a brilliant restoration job on it considering its age and use since Cole Palen built it. A pretty thing, but that wing would terrify me. When they need to put extra struts on the struts to stop the wings fluttering that's never a good sign

 

I've yet to visit Old Rhinebeck in person (one day!) but I've heard their DVII is particularly authentic, and so would be a good one to use as a reference. Unlike the Albatros it has an original engine doesn't it?

 

If you are still wanting to use the shot down Wusthoff plane as a reference point, it's worth checking out the Wingnut wings model kit website - Wingnut are owned by Peter Jackson and informed by his collection of replicas and originals, and they have a lot of reference photos on the site. A couple of these are alternative views of that Wusthoff Fokker, showing the plane and trailer in different poses. I hadn't seen these pictures anywhere else -

 

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3081&cat=1

[flandersflyer]

That Albatros looks lovely - they've done a brilliant restoration job on it considering its age and use since Cole Palen built it. A pretty thing, but that wing would terrify me. When they need to put extra struts on the struts to stop the wings fluttering that's never a good sign

 

I've yet to visit Old Rhinebeck in person (one day!) but I've heard their DVII is particularly authentic, and so would be a good one to use as a reference. Unlike the Albatros it has an original engine doesn't it?

 

If you are still wanting to use the shot down Wusthoff plane as a reference point, it's worth checking out the Wingnut wings model kit website - Wingnut are owned by Peter Jackson and informed by his collection of replicas and originals, and they have a lot of reference photos on the site. A couple of these are alternative views of that Wusthoff Fokker, showing the plane and trailer in different poses. I hadn't seen these pictures anywhere else -

 

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/productdetail?productid=3081&cat=1

the old rhinebeck has 2 D7s

 

one flies with a Mercedes D111 `overcompressed`

 

the other has an inverted gypsyqueen.....

[flandersflyer]

here is a good example of the fokker Dv11:

 

 

 

here is the same owner/pilot...with his fokker DR1:

 

 

[Morris C8]

I think this is a Crossley RFC Tender. Original Photo from my collection.

Keith

 

 

[RAFMT]

Look what I found lying around at work Tom!

 

 

 

If you want Sopwith plans, then I'll see what we can do, otherwise we don't have too much.

[simon king]

I do not think the dynamo can be converted to as starter without major changes as the windings are completely different.

 

Here is an Albatross at Old Rhinebeck which I saw during a visit on Saturday when I went to look and photo graph the detail of a Fokker DV11.

 

 

 

Looks as if there might be a DVIII fuselage going to be spare in Germany - midway down page 1

 

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?128914-Fantastic-news-from-Stow-Maries&

 

surely worth asking.............

[flandersflyer]

is all this Achim angels planes that he has built?

[Charawacky]

Look what I found lying around at work Tom!

 

 

 

 

If you want Sopwith plans, then I'll see what we can do, otherwise we don't have too much.

 

When Can I pick up the Dv11 that is lying around, I have transport!

 

I now have Dv11 plans and I am studying them!

 

Will also investigate the fuselage mentioned to be in Germany

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Tom

[FRAFM]

The RAF Museum's Crossley tender now runs! After a year of work, including the repair of severely cracked and damaged cylinder blocks we finally started and ran the tender around the Museum car park today. Hopefully I'll be able to post some videos soon. I can't thank Tom enough for the loan of his spare mag which enabled us to get it running while our mag is being rewound and refurbished.

 

No one expects to see old vehicles at the RAF Museum so many were surprised to see both our Ford Model T and Crossley Tenders being driven around the car park this afternoon!

[RAFMT]

And a certain Mr Simpson didn't come up and tell me until I was going home :mad:

I feel left out