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Another Thornycroft

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Another project arrived at my house this week. This time a fairly light-weight worm drive Thornycroft.

IMG_4198s.thumb.jpg.0053e22ac07105aebe3f5338a8210e30.jpg

 

The wheels have CP&Co asset tags. I seem to have ended up with another red lorry.

IMG_4194s.thumb.jpg.6d2e06dda2273d739061beb4eb6e57a7.jpg

 

40 of these were purchased by CP&Co from Thornycroft and were delivered between the end of 1913 and early 1914. Thirty of them were impressed by the war office so by the end of 1914 only ten remained in the Carter Paterson fleet. On the CP&Co stock take they are listed as 35cwt and the dimensions match those of a pre WWI type BT (the post WWI version appears to be bigger and heavier). 

CP.thumb.jpg.1f0ab1e8e1f88a99f14e9c07d83797d3.jpg

 

I have not yet uncovered the chassis number but even if I do it may not help with identifying if in was one of the 30 transferred to military service. 

 

 

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19 hours ago, BenHawkins said:

Another project arrived at my house this week. This time a fairly light-weight worm drive Thornycroft.

IMG_4198s.thumb.jpg.0053e22ac07105aebe3f5338a8210e30.jpg

 

The wheels have CP&Co asset tags. I seem to have ended up with another red lorry.

IMG_4194s.thumb.jpg.6d2e06dda2273d739061beb4eb6e57a7.jpg

 

40 of these were purchased by CP&Co from Thornycroft and were delivered between the end of 1913 and early 1914. Thirty of them were impressed by the war office so by the end of 1914 only ten remained in the Carter Paterson fleet. On the CP&Co stock take they are listed as 35cwt and the dimensions match those of a pre WWI type BT (the post WWI version appears to be bigger and heavier). 

CP.thumb.jpg.1f0ab1e8e1f88a99f14e9c07d83797d3.jpg

 

I have not yet uncovered the chassis number but even if I do it may not help with identifying if in was one of the 30 transferred to military service. 

 

 

Look closely for traces of service colour paint.

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The chassis number should be stamped on the left front dumb iron. Also check for any numbers on the top of the diff and about the king pins. These latter sites are numbers and letters from which I am trying to piece together a record of identity and parts dating as no parts manuals pre 1919 seem to exist. Are there casting numbers and letters on the rear springs front mounts, and the brake drums?

 Doug W

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The back axle is still fitted with the complete worm-drive so that makes it a better start than either of my Dennis projects. My good friend Mick had what appears to be a "new old stock" radiator in his garage and it appears to be the perfect shape and size despite not having the Thornycroft badge. CP & Co vehicles often had a CP & Co badge in place of the makers radiator badge.

IMG_4206s.thumb.jpg.37f1f877027c7a5899a5d16ddabb35d7.jpg

So the engine, gearbox and steering box are the major components on the shopping list to make this a viable restoration.

I have a 1916 instruction book and illustrated parts list for the "X Type" so I am sure there were earlier instruction books. It would be nice to have them for both the pre-WWI and post-WWI Type BT so I could see if any parts were common between the two.

Were all the impressed vehicles repainted eventually? I have seen a few photos of CP & Co lorries in military service but still in their original livery.

There are various colours of paint remaining on the chassis but mostly it is red, green, beige and rust. I will keep you informed of markings as I find them.

I expect this project will mostly be collecting (parts and information) for a few years whilst I complete the Dennis projects. Perhaps it is another "impossible" project; there is only one way to find out.

 

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So, every so often I have been having a little look at further materials to see if I can find any more information. "Diary of a nursing sister on the western front 1914-1915" states "They have a Carter- Paterson motor- van for the Military mail-cart at the M.P.O., and two Tommies sit by a packing-case with a slit in the lid for the letter-box.". I guess many of these fairly lightweight vans would have been used for this sort of purpose.

I also found an Automobile Association engineers report of war office disposals inspected on 11th Feb 1919. This was sent to me some years ago by my good friend Mick.

Surplus.JPG.2096c255d488a964f1feae56482cb028.JPG

It is certainly not a comprehensive list of all disposals so I was surprised to see how many were small Thornycroft vehicles.

1603, 1605, 1611, 1620, 1622, 1623, 1659, 1673 and 1676 were all CP&Co T4 engine chassis. They are marked up as type AT here but type BT in the Hampshire transcript of the Thornycroft production register. 

I was interested to see that a reasonable number made it to the end of the war with civilian registrations but they may have been used on the home front.

Would the registration numbers give any information on what they were used for during the war?

 

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Hello Ben,

That is part of an interesting document, which I think may be the post war vehicle census that someone on here was searching for. Do you have the rest of it ?

Kempton Park was filled with ex military vehicles in various states of repair and this was brought to an end by the direct intervention of King George V, who let it be known that he wished to see the resumption of horse racing there after the war.

Vehicles on home service continued to carry civilian registration No's, but all operating overseas were issued with WD bonnet No's from late 1914. These were initially given out to units in blocks, with instructions as to size and placement. All previous registrations were to be removed. New vehicles were given WD No's at the point of issue. 

There was some considerable shuffling of vehicles between units, in an attempt to homoginise vehicle types and vehicles sent for heavy repair were not returned to their original units, but held in a pool and issued as required. 

Occasionally vehicle No's and types were recorded in ASC war diaries, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Regards,

Tomo 

 

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Mick will confirm but I think that this is the Radiator that Steve and I bought at the Yeovil Traction Engine Rally more than 20 years ago when we were looking for parts for our Thorny. We knew that it was not right for the "J" but it was too good to walk away from so we bought it!  Mick took it on saying that it would come in useful one day - and he was right Ben!

Tony

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On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:08 PM, 8_10 Brass Cleaner said:

Ben

Do you have photos of what the engine and gearbox should look like please.

You never know what I may come across ;-)

If anyone can find it, you can!

 

The T4 engine is a small four cylinder monoblock, 3-1/2" bore 5-1/2" stroke. This is the only photo I have found so far.

Engine.jpg.4f930e6c2e7b9e686120345acd2afa15.jpg

 

The gearbox is a smaller version of that used in the X-Type but with only three gears. The chassis is 3' wide so the gearbox should be about the same.

IMG_4244s.thumb.jpg.8dfc10916be2d9f4dfe5da19094ca406.jpg

 

Edited by BenHawkins
Mistake, nothing like J-Type gearbox.

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13 hours ago, Tomo.T said:

That is part of an interesting document, which I think may be the post war vehicle census that someone on here was searching for. Do you have the rest of it ? 

 

Thanks for the information. That document is 14 pages long; certainly not a full census of Kempton park. I will see if I can get permission to pass it on and find out where it came from originally.

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Tony, it is good to know a bit more about the radiator it seems we all find parts for each other. In fact one of the best things about the veteran lorry hobby is how helpful everybody is; I am sure Team Gosling are a driving force behind that!

I have taken a few more photos of the chassis. There is a variety of paint on the chassis; some red some greyish.

IMG_4238s.thumb.jpg.34f69f0d69bbdfcea0470ee3db495240.jpg

 

The dumb irons appear to have been cast by JAC but I don't know which foundry this was. There is a pattern number as well but that is not legible.

IMG_4241s.thumb.jpg.c8af20d8d6f33471af679ddb41182e81.jpg

 

The rear spring front hangers have no markings.

IMG_4239s.thumb.jpg.e5020ccc0697d30aed57ea3b27133a6c.jpg

 

And I have not spotted any on the brake drums either.

IMG_4243s.thumb.jpg.bd8a0c67acb64a74505c2548cc4da0f6.jpg

 

The worm drive back axle is interesting, made up in three layers rather than the pot-type that seemed to become standard on later vehicles.

IMG_4242s.thumb.jpg.e455df0aba9b7fe86024dfbe4c99db36.jpg

When dismantling, cleaning and blasting commences I am sure some more numbers will appear that are currently obscured by a century of abuse.

 

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Ben - looks like another interesting project!

The JAC mark has been touched on here before. On our Garrett wagon there are a lot of steel castings marked “JAC”, and they are believed to have been cast by Catton’s foundry in Leeds.

 

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The Thornycroft register have kindly given me permission to reproduce this body builders drawing of the pre-WWI BT. It shows how narrow the vehicle is and matches the dimensions of my chassis exactly with the exception of the wheels. This shows 35" overall diameter but mine is fitted with 90mm for 686mm (27") press on band tyres; quite a strange size and even as new I don't believe there would have been enough rubber on them to reach 35" diameter.

The drawing clearly shows how the trunnion mounts are outboard of the chassis rails.

5aa18f15c3144_btchassis.thumb.jpg.5c201bd604f68c21e3888be406a01e05.jpg

 

The front hubcaps are more like those fitted to the chain drive R & S types fitted with the M2 engine.

IMG_4245s.thumb.jpg.b342cfdb4922dd89e33985161e435015.jpg

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Those photos show a most interesting vehicle. The cast bearing caps don't match the M2 at Melbourne nor the one in parts here. They are brass.with the lettering recessed into the brass..

As for the diff housing, having a lower section bolted in place is so different to the latter years. I recall seeing a photo of a similar diff housing on a vehicle,  so will now have to track that photo down. 

 My early J ( c 1913) has a number of JAC  castings but not behind the dumb irons.

 Overall Ben what you have is unique, and  like your other rebuilds will develop into a fine example of your workman ship. 

Thornycroft M2  wheels alt eml  jan; 2014 008.jpg

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On ‎09‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:38 PM, nz2 said:

 Overall Ben what you have is unique, and  like your other rebuilds will develop into a fine example of your workman ship. 

Thanks for your kind words,

Short production run, very incomplete vehicles seem to have become my speciality; I must learn to choose more carefully. 

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Hi Ben,

I'm looking forward to following this, as with all the vehicles on this page.

Please could you tell us the origins of the chassis, is it another farm cart/workman's caravan rescue?

Thanks,

Adrian

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59 minutes ago, Le Prof said:

Hi Ben,

I'm looking forward to following this, as with all the vehicles on this page.

Please could you tell us the origins of the chassis, is it another farm cart/workman's caravan rescue?

Thanks,

Adrian

It has spent several decades in museum stores but with nobody particularly interested in it. Before that it appears to have been a farm trailer.

 

oldclassiccar.co.uk have given me permission to reproduce these photos here:

I believe this is chassis number 1629, a BT originally purchased by Chas Wells and another one impressed by the War Office.

thornycroft-lorry.jpg.0c29ccf6138f29f35c40a9e483ec778c.jpg

 

The photo showing the detail of the controls is a great resource as well. thornycroft-cab.jpg.114cb9953eedc133e36aa1c104038701.jpg

 

 

 

 

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So awesome that you have images of this ancient truck when "living" and have some idea of it's early history. THe images are great but they must induce at least a little intimidation at seen just how far you have to go. If you aren't intimidated, you are a better man than me, Gunga Din!

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On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 11:41 AM, BenHawkins said:

The Thornycroft register have kindly given me permission to reproduce this body builders drawing of the pre-WWI BT. It shows how narrow the vehicle is and matches the dimensions of my chassis exactly with the exception of the wheels. This shows 35" overall diameter but mine is fitted with 90mm for 686mm (27") press on band tyres; quite a strange size and even as new I don't believe there would have been enough rubber on them to reach 35" diameter.

The drawing clearly shows how the trunnion mounts are outboard of the chassis rails.

5aa18f15c3144_btchassis.thumb.jpg.5c201bd604f68c21e3888be406a01e05.jpg

 

The front hubcaps are more like those fitted to the chain drive R & S types fitted with the M2 engine.

IMG_4245s.thumb.jpg.b342cfdb4922dd89e33985161e435015.jpg

 

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Just now, BosunAl said:

 

The builder's drawings with dimensions were greatly appreciated.  Such drawings are most valuable to us lurkers and I wish more folks would post them.  It might make a great new forum topic.

 

Al

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On 12/03/2018 at 7:53 PM, 4x4Founder said:

So awesome that you have images of this ancient truck when "living" and have some idea of it's early history. THe images are great but they must induce at least a little intimidation at seen just how far you have to go.

Compared to Ben's other trucks this one seems unusually complete. 

 

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On 12/03/2018 at 8:35 PM, BenHawkins said:

It has spent several decades in museum stores but with nobody particularly interested in it. Before that it appears to have been a farm trailer.

Hi Ben,

thanks for the reply. To me it's always interesting to know the back story on these vehicles, and how they survive in the condition that they do (for better or worse).

I note the WO disposals list above has many lorries which are already just chassis after the first 6 years  or less of their existance, so some chassis could easily have spent 80+ years as a trailer.

Best Regards, and Good Luck,

Adrian

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On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:53 PM, 4x4Founder said:

So awesome that you have images of this ancient truck when "living" and have some idea of it's early history. THe images are great but they must induce at least a little intimidation at seen just how far you have to go. If you aren't intimidated, you are a better man than me, Gunga Din!

I try to be quite selective about which projects I take on; they tend to be as early and rare as possible and usually everyone else has turned them down.

This will mainly be a collecting project for the foreseeable future; if the correct engine or gearbox turns up then it progresses to a viable project. With the Dennis projects we have been very lucky with parts and many of the drawings are available at the Surrey History Centre. I have not visited the Thornycroft archives yet.

Lots more research to do.

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On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 6:09 AM, Tomo.T said:

Hello Ben,

That is part of an interesting document, which I think may be the post war vehicle census that someone on here was searching for. Do you have the rest of it ?

Regards,

Tomo 

 

After chasing down the origin of this document it appears to have been found at Kew so I believe it is OK to share it here (hopefully attached to this message).

 

War Office Disposals, 1919.pdf

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