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Starfire

Clansman Installation in a Saracen APC

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Hi All,

 

I have been trying to make up my mind if I should go with the period correct Larkspur or the affordable and (relatively reliable) Clansman radio setup for both the intercom and (later) radio fitout for my Saracen Mk 5. I have decided to go with Clansman, but having never worked with it before, I thought I'd post up my initial system design and musings for your consideration and comments.

 

From what I can gather, the ANR stuff can be a pain to get everything working together, so I am thinking that the older style, non-ANR components would be easier, although they don't come with the sexy yellow faceplates :cool2:

 

My initial design drawing:

 

Radio.jpg

 

Initially, I would only be installing the Intercom components, consisting of an IB2, 5 CB2 boxes, a CBF/CPU combo and a DB. The diagram has orange lines for the main bus ring (I had some trouble with routing in Visio, so the lines should basically go around the perimeter of the inside of the hull, instead of across the floor as shown). This should allow for each seat to be equipped with a headset on the intercom setup and allow for the installation of the two radios detailed.

 

I have not quite worked out where all of the other boxes should be installed, particularly the IBHA and DCCU for the 352, probably towards the right side of the front of the hull, above the main distribution box.

 

Will it work? What can I/should I improve?

 

Does anyone have any general questions or comments?

 

Cheers,

Terry

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The other thought I've had is that maybe the 4 CB2 boxes in the back should be replaced with DBs, so that randomn passengers can't mess around with the radios, when fitted.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Does anyone have experience with Clansman installations? I'm a bit surprised that there haven't been any responses, given how knowledgeable everyone usually is around here :)

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Replying just so you know someone is reading ! I'm not an expert on AFV Harness installations - much more comfortable with standalone and landrover-style ones, so don't feel qualified unfortunately. There are people around here and in the ham radio community (look at the Vintage & Military ARS and the clansman_larkspur and WS No. 19 Yahoo groups) who have got most of it working and between them have collected most of the documentation. Hopefully someone from there is also here and can help, otherwise it will do no harm to join.

 

Regards

 

Iain

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Looking at the diagram the basic ring topology is correct - if you end up fitting radios as well as intercom their harness ports (or the IBHA harness port) are connected to the IB2 interface box.

Edited by g0ozs
minor correction

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Does anyone have experience with Clansman installations? I'm a bit surprised that there haven't been any responses, given how knowledgeable everyone usually is around here :)

 

Sorry not Saracen, but here is a video I did of my fv432 after I converted it back to Clansman from bowman, so there might be a couple of bits of info that might help you.

 

Something went wrong...

 

Again for an fv432, but I have uploaded some Clansman installation manuals here...

 

http://www.fv432.co.uk/fv432manuals.html

 

Dougy

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In the early 70s, Army were told they might have CVR(T) or Clansman, not both. We got CVR(T). We fitted Larkspur, which took some ingenuity, I seem to recall there was not enough room for two A-set power supplies on the turret shelf, so one got a (very) long cable and went under the gunner's seat.

 

Fast forward to the end of the 70s. We were now looking at Clansman to replace Larkspur and Sultan to replace Saracen ACV. My memory (could be at fault: it's 35 years ago) is that we got Sultan in late 79 and fitted Larkspur until Clansman came along a few months later, early in 1980. As a Command Troop Control Signaller, we were very slick at putting radios in and out: it was a part of our day job. I remember passing comment that it would have been nice to get Clansman at same time as Sultan. But here is the catch.

 

I remember the Regimental Signals Sergeant telling us that there was some incompatibility that actually prevented us from fitting Clansman to Saracen. I don't remember if he ever expanded on this: we just had to suck it up and fit radios to our Sultans twice.

 

Not a lot of help to you I am afraid.

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Thanks AlienFTM,

 

Other than a possible compatibility issue (the only thing that I can think if is that the ignition nay be too "noisy" or that the generator may not be able to provide enough power), does my basic design seem sound?

 

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Dougy,

 

I finally got my home internet connection fixed and can watch YouTube videos again; that was very helpful, thanks.

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I must admit that I'm still flying blind somewhat but figure that the worst that can happen is a major electrical fire :P

 

It ended up being easier to get the ANR equipment, most of which had been checked and repackaged in 1999.

 

anr.jpg

 

What I need to do now is start mounting all of the boxes (thankfully, they seem to use a common mounting spacing with the Larkspur gear, so it shouldn't require much more than purchasing some studs, nuts and bolts of the appropriate sizes and bolting them in). The tricky part is going to be that I was supplied with a spool of cable and some ends to manufacture up the harness and power cables but was not provided with any pin-out diagrams or instructions.

 

The harness connectors have all been supplied with right angled connectors, which can be mounted at 8 different angles relative to the plug and appear to be pre-tinned solder plugs. The rubber bungs are a bit strange though, as the smaller one is blanked for two holes, but only one is open while the longer one has two blind holes. Am I supposed to slit or cut them open or have I been given the wrong parts? I think that the parts should be installed as laid out in the picture, but I'm not sure. Some documentation would be a real help.

 

WP_20140526_016.jpg

 

The power cable appears to be much the same, but I was provided with a length of 3 core cable and the connector only appears to have two solder lands. Again I have encountered blind holes in the rubber bung.

 

WP_20140526_023.jpg

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Terry

WP_20140526_012.jpg

WP_20140526_015.jpg

WP_20140526_018.jpg

WP_20140526_020.jpg

Edited by Starfire
Accidentally posted while still authoring the post.

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Thanks AlienFTM,

 

Other than a possible compatibility issue (the only thing that I can think if is that the ignition nay be too "noisy" or that the generator may not be able to provide enough power), does my basic design seem sound?

 

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

Noisy is what rings a bell if I am honest (and you'll pardon the pun).

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Thanks for the responses so far everyone.

 

From what I understand, the fact that mine has an electronic breaker fitted should reduce the noise considerably; for the initial intercom installation a bit of noise won't be too much of a problem anyway and I guess we'll see how it goes when and if I fit some radios.

 

From what I can see with the harness connectors, I have been supplied the wrong type of fitment ends and it should have come with hollow rubber bungs and not the ones provided. I'll hassle the vendor to see if he can provide the correct items, or modify the rubbers myself to suit.

 

Does anyone have some Larkspur fitment EMERs available for the Saracen so that I can have a look at where they fitted the various boxes? I guess that's not too critical though, as the Larkspur setup was much more radio centric, while Clansman seems to move a lot of functionality out to the harness.

 

In my design, I had planned for the IB2 to be largely set and forget, but according to the brief manual I read last night, it appears that an operator needs to have a headset plugged into it when it is being used for rebroadcast? Maybe I read it wrong...

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Does anyone know where I should get my 24v feed for radio power in the Saracen?

 

This thing?

WP_20140608_003.jpg

 

Here somewhere?

WP_20131020_108.jpg

 

Or somewhere else?

 

Cheers,

Terry

WP_20140608_002.jpg

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I've managed to find some documentation on Clansman cable assemblies, which showed that I had been supplied the incorrect Accessory Sets for the harness cables. The vendor, PTS Norfolk (http://www.ptsnorfolk.co.uk/), was great and sent me the correct ones. The cable I have is Cable, Electrical, Sub-Miniature 7-2-12c (6145-99-110-8634).

 

Cable.jpg

 

Connector, pattern 104, double density, 12-contacts, angled.jpg

Connector, pattern 104, double density, 12-contacts, angled

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 700]

[TR]

[TD]Description

[/TD]

[TD]QTY

[/TD]

[TD]VRN

[/TD]

[TD]NATO STOCK NUMBER

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]SHELL, MALE, FREE, SIZE 2, ORIENTATION 3

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-940-8825

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]ACCESSORY SET

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-014-9237

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

 

COMPRISING

 

[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

BUSHING RUBBER

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-647-3001

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

SHEILD, ELECTRICAL

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-014-2973

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

SLEEVE, IDENTIFICATION

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-097-0114

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

RING, ELECTRICAL BONDING

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-014-2939

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

BUSHING, RUBBER

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z1

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-097-0108

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

PACKING PIECE

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]Z32

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-014-9229

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

NUT, BUSHING RETAINER

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]RAF 10AC

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-014-2968

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]RETAINER, ELECTRICAL SHIELD

[/TD]

[TD]1

[/TD]

[TD]RAF 10AS

[/TD]

[TD]5935-99-013-9163

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

Connector, pattern 104, double density, 12-contacts, angled, rear view.jpg

Connector, pattern 104, double density, 12-contacts, angled, rear view

 

[TABLE=class: grid, width: 500]

[TR]

[TD]Pin

[/TD]

[TD]Wire Colour

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]A

[/TD]

[TD]BROWN

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]B

[/TD]

[TD]VIOLET

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]C

[/TD]

[TD]GREY

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]D

[/TD]

[TD]YELLOW

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]E

[/TD]

[TD]WHITE

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]H

[/TD]

[TD]ORANGE

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]K

[/TD]

[TD]TURQUOISE

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]L

[/TD]

[TD]PINK

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]M

[/TD]

[TD]BLUE

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]O

[/TD]

[TD]BLACK

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]P

[/TD]

[TD]GREEN

[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]S

[/TD]

[TD]RED

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

I managed to jack a 24V power supply from the back of the black distribution panel and run that to the 3-way Clansman power distribution box.

 

Now I just have to find someone to do the soldering for me, as it turns out that I'm not as good at soldering dense connectors as I thought I was :P

 

Getting closer.

 

Cheers,

Terry

Edited by Starfire

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Does anyone know where I should get my 24v feed for radio power in the Saracen?

 

Dsc07481.jpg

 

Dsc07482.jpg

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Thanks Clive,

 

I assume that the attachment indicates that I should be getting power from the Battens Terminal marked with an "X", in which case, that's exactly where I got it.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Out of curiosity what cable is used for the 12-way harness? (for the intercomm setup)

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Out of curiosity what cable is used for the 12-way harness? (for the intercomm setup)

 

That's all detailed in post 16, above. The cable is Cable, Electrical, Sub-Miniature 7-2-12c (6145-99-110-8634).

 

Cheers,

Terry

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Terry, I read this thread with great interest, since I just bought a Saracen and was trying to figure out the radio situation. I have to admit, I didn't really follow all the nuances but I can see this is not as simple as bolting something down and plugging it in.

How did your radio install turn out? Does it all work?

What would you do differently? For someone that is considering a radio install, what is the best (cheapest, most reliable) option? Thank you!

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I'm glad to hear that putting all this info together was of use to someone else!

 

I've not got a radio install in yet, but I do have a Clansman intercom. Being a bigger guy and the fact that the radio tray goes to the side of the driver's seat, it will make it harder to get in and out of than it already is, but I do still kinda want a radio setup. I would also need to get a higher-end radio license to use military frequencies and would still have the problem of not really having anyone to talk to anyway :P

 

The Clansman gear uses the same bolt spacing as the earlier Larkspur gear and was therefore quite easy to physically install. I believe that your Saracen is a Mk 6, so you will have a similar problem to me in that the existing mounting studs are somewhat inaccessible through the interior padding. Fortunately, there were still a few of the original solution to the problem in place, being stud extensions. I made up some more by welding 1/4" AF nuts onto the heads of 1/4" AF bolts and screwing them on to the existing studs (which appears to be what they did in service).

 

The guy that made the cables up for me didn't do a great job (a couple were faulty and some of his soldering is barely any better than mind), and so I've only got a few of the boxes connected, and there is a bit of ignition noise on the system, but I do have a lot of corrosion in my ignition junction box (I've got a replacement, but haven't fitted it yet). I have my harness running in an open loop, which is technically a fault condition, but it works fine.

 

With the driver and commander headsets set to open mike, (+M), the system works exceptionally well and we can clearly communicate, even when running at 50 MPH.

 

Current system diagram:

 

Intercom.jpg

 

I honestly would not consider running a Saracen on the road without a commander and working intercom. Before the intercom was fitted, we used some cheap walkie-talkie type headsets that actually worked fairly well, as long as they had fresh 9v batteries in them.

 

Cheers,

Terry

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