tiger tank

[Meteor mark 4B]

I can never understand why it seems everyone gets excited about the Tiger. The Tank Museum at Bovington are prime examples. They have spent thousands of pounds on a restoration, when there is good British armour rusting away. From what I have read the Tiger was over-engineered, cumbersome, and unreliable. We had a tank like that, and it was surely one of the most impressive tanks ever, more so than the Tiger, and this was the Conqueror. I admit the Tiger may well have been special in WW2, but it was a bit of an uneven contest, wasn't it?

 

Oh dear, I hope I haven't started anything!

[John Pearson]

As with most things, the truth is not quite how it appears. The expence of restoration, apparently at the cost of the range recoveries in the yard was not a concious decision.

Initially, this restoration was being done 'inhouse' and an enormous amount of work was done for very little expence when the team of volunteers and staff broke up for various reasons. This coincided with a lack of staff for restoration work and left what is actually a unique vehicle in a completely stripped down, unshowable condition. It must be appreciatedthat this was the first of the 'bogeyman' Tiger tanks to fall into Allied hands and also it had been knocked out by the then despised Churchill. It was a massive boost to morale at a dark time in the war. I believe it is tso early made that it is fitted with the sole remaining turret from the alternative Tiger, the hulls of which were eventually used up as Elephant/Ferdinands and is by far the earliest Tiger to survive. Many visitors to the Tank Museum travel from the four corners of the World just to see it so to have it unshowable was a disaster. Various funding applications were made and one to the Lottery was successful which specified professional restoration. It is notable that at the same time an application to the Lottery to restore the wonderfully complex WWI Whippet was refused out of hand.

Yes, it was overated and still is. It is over-engineered and the uneccessary complexity certainly and luckilly reduced production numbers but the Tank Museum has to be self funding. The Tiger probably earns more a year in visitor entrance monies received than all of the rest of the exhibits put together.

How far would you personally travel to see a Cavalier, Centaur or 3 inch SP Churchill? I would go miles but most of the people on Earth will only travel for Tiger!

[Meteor mark 4B]

Phew! I can't argue with any of that! Mind you, the sound of a Conq travelling across country, with a good driver, was something special indeed.(Even if the enemy could hear it approaching 15 miles away.....)

[ashley]

Hi all,

The tiger tank at Tankfest was really what the crowds turned up for including my self there are many fine exhibits running and non running at the museum, and though it did not sound to great it was a fantastic sight to see the tiger take to the arena.

I am sure i saw john on the tank when the engine decks were up after the display. I belive that even now the german running example has had a diesel engine fitted, may this could be next for 131 ??

Iam sure many can remember the 1st WW tank when it was running another great sight which has now ceased, and Bovington over the years has had some fine examplea running, matilda, tetctrac(?) RR armoured car but i belive the fact that they do not get constant use after restoration could be the reason that even the restored vehicles have high maintenance costs. I know that last due to an illness the jeep got very little use and it was a right pig to start each time, THANK GOD FOR STARTING HANDLES.

 

Ashley

[John Pearson]

Phew! I can't argue with any of that! Mind you, the sound of a Conq travelling across country, with a good driver, was something special indeed.(Even if the enemy could hear it approaching 15 miles away.....)

 

I went to Duxford one year (1988 ish) and they had their own Conquerer, the one they were just about to swap with the Russians for a JSII and a Conquerer ARV. They ran all 3 in convoy, flat out, down the runway! Now there was a sight and a sound!

By the way, the one going to Russia was restored from a range wreck and someone happened to notice when the speedo clicked round for the first complete mile, all done in small shunts around the workshop with lots of engine test running etc. They checked the fuel records and found that at that point it had consumed 64 gallons to do that mile! Now that is pricey!

[John Pearson]

Hi all,

The tiger tank at Tankfest was really what the crowds turned up for including my self there are many fine exhibits running and non running at the museum, and though it did not sound to great it was a fantastic sight to see the tiger take to the arena.

I am sure i saw john on the tank when the engine decks were up after the display.

Ashley

 

Too damn right! I have a slipped disc and heart disease but offered to help pull the engine cover and do any other odd jobs. Needless to say, when it came time to move it I naturally said "how about a ride then?" Ok says the driver from ABRO but you will have to get down inside so as not to appear in any photos! So I jumps into the co driver/bow machine gunners slot and rode it back to the workshops.

"Them as don't ask, don't get" (Bob Grundy, about 1986!)

 

Tiger should be out again at Tankfest this year and the engine should be fixed. Also Matilda II and Crusader III and of course lots of old favourites and maybe a few odd foreign types you might not have seen move before, if we can persuade them to run!

[ashley]

Hi John,

any chance the WW1 tank will ever run again ?? will yours be on display ?? remember seeing you at studland with the tank a couple of years ago.

 

Ashley

[John Pearson]

Hi John,

any chance the WW1 tank will ever run again ?? will yours be on display ?? remember seeing you at studland with the tank a couple of years ago.

 

Ashley

 

Two of Bovington's WW1 tanks are runnable: the Mk V and the Mk IV. Unfortunately the Mk V has cracks in the main chassis frames which although it remains capable of self propulsion, it is very unlikely to be used except for a few yards for very special occasions: it appeared at the Cenotaph a couple of years ago but only drove about 15 yds.

The MkIV, so far as I know could be driven tomorrow but it is so difficult to drive (hand cranked start, 4 well trained crew to drive etc) that it just isn't driven. The Whippet is not too far away from being runnable but the others: no realistic chance really.

My Valentine DD will not be at Tankfest unfortunately because I can't afford the transport. I should be driving either the Crusader and Matilda instead. The DD should be Beltring as usual and possibly several other places, yet to be confirmed.

[ArtistsRifles]

The MkIV, so far as I know could be driven tomorrow but it is so difficult to drive (hand cranked start, 4 well trained crew to drive etc) that it just isn't driven. The Whippet is not too far away from being runnable but the others: no realistic chance really.

 

Are Bovington that short of volunteers to man these vehicles then?????

If they are then I am much suprised - if not actually shocked!!

[Richard Farrant]

Unfortunately the Mk V has cracks in the main chassis frames ...................

The MkIV, so far as I know could be driven tomorrow but it is so difficult to drive (hand cranked start, 4 well trained crew to drive etc) that it just isn't driven.

 

Neil,

 

I suspect the reason these WW1 tanks are not driven excepting for very special commemerations, is not so much to do with crewing, more their fragility.

I recently was involved in surveying a MkIV tank for projected conservation work, it has stood in the same place since 1919, there are a number of serious cracks in the armour. After consultation with the Tank Museum, it seems that this early armour plate is now actually very fragile and suffers from crystalisation. The stresses of turning one of these tracked vehicles could produce serious structural failures, welding is most probably out of the question now, so you can see why movements of these rare vehicles is kept to the absolute minimum now.

 

Richard

[ArtistsRifles]

Cheers Richard - suppose I should have thought of that - early 20th century metallurgy did leave a bit to be desired

 

Shame though as they are a very important part of our history - perhaps even more so than the Tiger!!

[John Pearson]

Are Bovington that short of volunteers to man these vehicles then?????

If they are then I am much suprised - if not actually shocked!!

 

It is not a lack of bodies as such: it is the 'trained' part that is hard to come by: where the hell do you practice to become fully profficient BEFORE you drive it? Just a small example: if one side gearsman is in neutral and the commander has not locked the differential, when the driver lets in the clutch then the diff will spin uncontrolably. If one side gearsman changes into 2nd and the other a bit slow in changing gear and is still in 1st when the clutch is let in by the driver then the gears will lock and prevent the gearchange. This will give the same effect as the Wilson regenerative steering system but in old gears and shafts not designed for it. A broken half shaft would certainly result if the gearbox themselves survived. Remember that this perfect co-ordination has to be achieved in a bucking vehicle with no springs with the uncovered, unguarded engine bellowing away with lots of bare rotating parts waiting to bite you.

It is not just a case of pulling someone in off the street!

[ArtistsRifles]

Must put my hands up and freely admit to the sole extent of my knowledge of the WW1 tanks being my Grandads description of them - and as he was in the R.H.A. the description wasn't very complimentary!!

 

What are the respective crew members duties??? - and how did the army train the crews under these conditions??

[ashley]

Are Bovington that short of volunteers to man these vehicles then?????

If they are then I am much suprised - if not actually shocked!!

 

It is not a lack of bodies as such: it is the 'trained' part that is hard to come by: where the hell do you practice to become fully profficient BEFORE you drive it? Just a small example: if one side gearsman is in neutral and the commander has not locked the differential, when the driver lets in the clutch then the diff will spin uncontrolably. If one side gearsman changes into 2nd and the other a bit slow in changing gear and is still in 1st when the clutch is let in by the driver then the gears will lock and prevent the gearchange. This will give the same effect as the Wilson regenerative steering system but in old gears and shafts not designed for it. A broken half shaft would certainly result if the gearbox themselves survived. Remember that this perfect co-ordination has to be achieved in a bucking vehicle with no springs with the uncovered, unguarded engine bellowing away with lots of bare rotating parts waiting to bite you.

It is not just a case of pulling someone in off the street!

 

Hi ,

i also expect that the Health and Safety act (1974) etc would have something to say if anything went wrong !! and a training course for this type of action would be very expensive (in monetary terms as finding some thing to train on ) maybe remote control is needed :lol: :lol: sorry :oops: i really do not know the answer to the problem but what a shame

I suppose this has led to the reproductions now available on e-bay.

 

John i expect you have tried the museum for transport for your tank, it is a shame that such a rare item will be missing from Tankfest,unless any one here can help.......

Ashley

[John Pearson]

"]

John i expect you have tried the museum for transport for your tank, it is a shame that such a rare item will be missing from Tankfest,unless any one here can help.......

Ashley

 

Museum cant help me move my DD and my only Army contacts have now retired.

If anyone can arrange transport then of course I would be very grateful, certainly grateful enough to let the donor have a ride and also a short drive if they were up to it.

[John Pearson]

Must put my hands up and freely admit to the sole extent of my knowledge of the WW1 tanks being my Grandads description of them - and as he was in the R.H.A. the description wasn't very complimentary!!

 

What are the respective crew members duties??? - and how did the army train the crews under these conditions??

 

I really ought to check before posting but it is bed time so here goes: I will post a correction tomorrow if I am wrong!

There are two six pounder gunners, one each side.

There are two 6 pdr loaders who must also change the two auxilliary gearboxes in the rear of the tank, just behind the gun sponsons.

All four of these swing the starting handle (inside) to start the engine.

Driver: he controls throttle, clutch and main gearbox levers. He also operates the brake levers (I think, see below)

Commander operates the differential lock and in the Mk 1 I think he operated the steering wheel which steered the tail wheels and the lift mechanism for these wheels but I might have the steering levers and steering wheel the wrong way round: ie driver might have steered the wheels and the commander the brake levers.

Note they are brake levers: not clutch/brake levers. You either steered with an unlocked diff and the application of the brake slowed one side and speeded up the other (very ineffective so I understand) or you locked the diff, put one auxilliary gearbox in neutral and then applied the brake lever on that side to turn.

In the Mk IV, there are no tailwheels so the job of one of the crew is reduced compared to the Mk1 crew.

This is why the epycyclic steering and clustering all the controls for use by the driver was such an innovation in the MkV and is the reason that 90% of the driving at Bovy has been done on the MkV.

So far as training is concerned: no real idea but I believe it was a carefully taught, full time, six month course and that did not include battle training, just driving, operation and maintenance

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks John - that was interesting reading. I wish, many times, my old Grandad was still with us to ask about such things but he passed away some years ago having managed to survive WW1 from first shot to last in - relatively - one piece.

 

I suppose - reverting to the tank - the best thing would be to build an early model from scratch using modern materials and use it as a trainer - but I guess the cost would be prohibitive :cry:

[Big Al]

Thankyou john you have answerd some of the questions I was going to ask next weekend at Bovy about the WW1 tanks driving tasks see you then :!:

Alec

[John Pearson]

I did get it wrong (see above!)

The driver in the Mk 1 had: clutch and brake pedals, hand throttle, carb mixture and magneto controls, gearchange levers, steering wheel and tailwheel lift controls. Commander had the steering brake levers and the differential lock controls. Now I think that the Mk IV has the controls in the same layout except for the tailwheel controls but I can't find a specific reference to confirm that.

The complexity beggars belief, particularly as a simpler system had already been made for the Hornsby tractor which was running 5 years before WW1 started.

[ArtistsRifles]

I did get it wrong (see above!)

The driver in the Mk 1 had: clutch and brake pedals, hand throttle, carb mixture and magneto controls, gearchange levers, steering wheel and tailwheel lift controls. Commander had the steering brake levers and the differential lock controls. Now I think that the Mk IV has the controls in the same layout except for the tailwheel controls but I can't find a specific reference to confirm that.

The complexity beggars belief, particularly as a simpler system had already been made for the Hornsby tractor which was running 5 years before WW1 started.

 

Makes you wonder how they got them to move under combat conditions, let alone fight in them!!

Also engenders a whole new level of respect for those early crews!!!!!

[Scammell4199]

In reference to the WW1 tanks what other people in this thread have said is true, i know someone who regularly crews at bovington and they have said that the WW1 tanks are now so old that every time they are run something literally falls off or breaks. It is marvellous to see these old beasts running but i'd rather see then static than not at all.

Being a mechanical engineer i can say that Tiger was hideously over engineered, lucky for us. But to see it running is fantastic, and a first class restoration, bravo ABRO.

Conqueror is quite something, it has to be one of my favourite tanks, even though i've never seen it running, apart from the ARV, the sound the ARV produced was quite something.

If there are so many WW2 allied tanks available begging for restoration can someone please give me one. Currently have a Willys MB, Scammell SV/2S and AEC matador but would dearly like some allied WW2 armour.

[MilitantGraham]

Going back to the original Tiger question, I think there is too much emphasis on this one tank too. However, I live near the Severn Valley Railway and I know that no matter how much the true railway enthusiasts complain complain about having stupid faces stuck on the front of the locomotives, the "Thomas Weekends" are some of the busiest of the year. Not quite the same thing I know, but any museum or attraction has to balance its historic aims with simply getting as many paying visitors through the door as it can. For every one like me who wants to crawl under the AEC armoured car to see how the transmission compares to a Matador, there are probably several hundred who just want to see a Tiger tank running.

If only the tank museum was a bit closer to Worcestershire. They could count on at least one more volunteer.

[John Pearson]

I live in Staffordshire and there are others who come from further North! Give it a go: take a couple of mates to spread the cost and get up early and you are fine!

We were working on Matilda II, Crusader III and M13/40 last weekend. I mean, where else can you do that?

[ArtistsRifles]

I live in Staffordshire and there are others who come from further North! Give it a go: take a couple of mates to spread the cost and get up early and you are fine!

We were working on Matilda II, Crusader III and M13/40 last weekend. I mean, where else can you do that?

 

Sounds interesting for after Fords retire me!!

Do you stay overnight locally John or do you do the run every day???

[Big Al]

 

Matilda II,Crusader III M13/40 were else can you do that

John is right were can you work on these rare tanks the Matilda II and Crusader III should be running in Tankfest 25/06/06 and the M13/40 if John and crew gets it running and there may be a surprize late entry! I went down with john last weekend to help with the work thats need to be done to keep these and more running a most enjoyable weekend. Due to the distance we stayed over night to make the best use of the time we had, but john has done it all in one day in the past :!: We hope you can come to Tankfest 2006 it will have every British MBT's from 1940's to the present day plus more see you there.