antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 M.B. Wild also designed and built an assault bridge. http://www.remuseum.org.uk/articles/rem_article_assaultbridge.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 They also built manure spreaders...! http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=007-adams&cid=-1&Gsm=2008-06-18#-1 "INSTRUCTION BOOKLET, including parts price list, for Wild-Thwaites MK5 manure spreader. TR ADA/P2/B 635 [c.1960] Contents: M. B. Wild & Co., Ltd., Birmingham. Agent: Roye Adams & Co., Ltd., Newport, Shropshire. Pp 13" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) M B Wild also made hydraulic equipment (pumps/ valves etc), at least parts cross reference to them as a manufacturer. http://www.unwinhydraulic.co.uk/p/parker-commercial-cross-reference.php Edited January 10, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Mention here of a Scammel (not Scammell) ballon winch fitted to vessels. http://www.17balloons.co.uk/pages/page-05.html "All vessels were self-contained with space for the crew and equipment and the hold would contain, as well as cylinders of Hydrogen Gas, an aptly named Scammel Chassis-less Winch, bolted to a large block of concrete, which also provide ballast for the vessel. The DPL system was not used afloat and the balloons used had the addition of an internal structure of bamboo canes in the Stabilisers. To operate them from a floating site was somewhat restrictive, especially when the Daily Inspection was done! The Scammel Winches' had been dismounted from post war trailer units hence the title; later some were installed on permanent land Sites." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 Scammell are also identified as manufacturers of a Ballon winch (1936) "Scammell 1936 Kite Balloon Winch Mk. 1" http://navigator.rafmuseum.org/results.do?view=detail&db=object&pageSize=1&id=27672 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 There is clearly a close tie up between Scammell and Wild, I don't know where else to try and find out more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ackack Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well Davie, the round badge on my CX22 winch is riveted on the top triangular plate. Looking at diagram K2 on page 2 of this thread it is near where it states ; Section K Winch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Can you see what is written on that plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ackack Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Yes it states; M.B. Wild & Co Ltd Birmingham No A3959 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 I was reading a Scammell Register mag last night that details Scammells history around the time the Vertical winch was fitted. They call it a Scammell winch, and say that Scammell always had difficulty in surface hardening the teeth of the large gear, throughout the whole of the production life of the winch. Clearly they are claiming Scammell made the winch for their own vehicles, but I am still far from convinced they designed it, or built it for fitting to anyone elses vehicles. Until it is proved otherwise to me, I think that they anly licence built Wild's design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antar Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Should anyone require a brand new winch rope for one I do have an original one still coiled up. It has a spliced and bound eye is 7/8ths inch diameter and the correct length. It wont be cheap though, PM me if there is any interest. It was in the stowage locker on my 20 ton Constructor when I got it. It has been dry stored ever since. John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I was reading a Scammell Register mag last night that details Scammells history around the time the Vertical winch was fitted. They call it a Scammell winch, and say that Scammell always had difficulty in surface hardening the teeth of the large gear, throughout the whole of the production life of the winch. Clearly they are claiming Scammell made the winch for their own vehicles, but I am still far from convinced they designed it, or built it for fitting to anyone elses vehicles. Until it is proved otherwise to me, I think that they anly licence built Wild's design. The same article suggests that the basic design was derived from a Czech ploughing winch as fitted under the boilers of steam ploughing engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 The same article suggests that the basic design was derived from a Czech ploughing winch as fitted under the boilers of steam ploughing engines. which doesn't seem very likey to me...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 which doesn't seem very likey to me...... Derived as in 'based on'. As you can see the Scammell (Wild) winch bears no resemblance whatsoever to one on a ploughing engine:shocked: http://flickr.com/photos/89686959@N00/2890172127/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Ploughing engine winches are normally driven from a vertical shaft dropping down from the motion above the boiler. occasionally, the shaft is angled at about 30 degrees to vertical, but the Scammell/Wild drives from A horizontal shaft. Ploughing engine drums hold a far greater length of cable. I really can't see any common features worth mentioning..... more Scammell mythology if you ask me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Ploughing engine winches are normally driven from a vertical shaft dropping down from the motion above the boiler. occasionally, the shaft is angled at about 30 degrees to vertical, but the Scammell/Wild drives from A horizontal shaft. Ploughing engine drums hold a far greater length of cable. I really can't see any common features worth mentioning.....more Scammell mythology if you ask me.... The winch drum is driven by a vertical shaft In both cases. The vertical shaft is driven by a horizontal shaft in both cases. The length of cable is irrelevant, and in any case the ploughing engine would be unlikely to use a wire rope designed for a SWL of (18tons)?, so could fit far more on the drum. I would agree with the amount of mythology surrounding Watford products:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) The winch drum is driven by a vertical shaft In both cases. The vertical shaft is driven by a horizontal shaft in both cases. The length of cable is irrelevant, and in any case the ploughing engine would be unlikely to use a wire rope designed for a SWL of (18tons)?, so could fit far more on the drum. I would agree with the amount of mythology surrounding Watford products:) The Scammell winch is driven by a horizontal shaft. In attached diagram, the propellor shaft BB is technically not part of the winch. The winch starts at the Coupling flange BP which is on one end of a horizontal shaft (the wormshaft, within the worm casing BL. The drive into the winch is from the propellor shaft which lies (to all intents and purposes) horizontally. It is not so starightforward to decide where the winch starts on a ploughing engine. If you say that the motion shaft that carries the first bevel gear, is part of the engine, and the vertical shaft, picking up drive from this by a second bevel gear, is part of the winch, then the first shaft in the winch is vertical, whereas it is horizontal in the scammell winch. You could say that the winch starts with the dog clutch, that engages, disengages the drive from the motion. In which case the first part of the vertical shaft, (above the dog clutch) is part of the motion, and that lower of the shaft (below) the dog clutch, is part of the winch. In this view the winch is driven from a vertical shaft, into a second vertical shaft, via a dog clutch. With a steam engine the winch isn't a seperate part of the vehicle, as it is in the Scammell. It is actually integral with the whole constrauction, The winch on a Scammell is totally self contained and could be put onto any vehicle with a suitable PTO. The ploughing engine winch, has actually got part of its structure on the side of the boiler, the bevel gear is actually fitted to a shaft that forms the motion, you cannot just take a ploughing engine winch off and say put it on a road, loco. Deciding were the winch begins and the Motion ends is maybe always going to be open to debate. However you cannot say that the motion shaft (horizontal, is part of the winch, because if you took that off with the winch, the drive to the wheels would be incomplete, because the primary function of this shaft, is to connect the gearing to the Road wheels. (hence it is part of the engine) Another major difference between normal steam ploughing engine winches and the one fitted to the Scammell is that on the steam engine it runs on an unsupported shaft. ie there is no support to the end of the shaft the winch drum turns on, below the winch drum. It is on a stub axle attached to the underside of the boiler. The scammell winch is in effect turned over, because it lays above the chassis , not below the boiler, but the shaft passing through the drum, and on which it turns has a support both below and above the drum. Edited January 23, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 X 6 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [ In attached diagram, the propellor shaft BB is technically not part of the winch. Mike, just out of interest, what is the purpose of propeller shaft BB and could the winch be operated if this shaft was absent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) No, the propellor shaft is the link between the winch and the gearbox. My point is that you can take the complete winch off the pioneer/explorer, and both the winch, and the vehicle are complete. You cannot take the winch off a ploughing engine in the same way because elements of the drive sytem are dual purpose, one shaft in particular may be thought of as part of the winch, or part of the drive to the wheels, to seperate the winch from the engine would leave one or the other without a shaft that forms part of that unit. Edited January 23, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 X 6 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) No, the propellor shaft is the link between the winch and the gearbox. My point is that you can take the complete winch off the pioneer/explorer, and both the winch, and the vehicle are complete. You cannot take the winch off a ploughing engine in the same way because elements of the drive sytem are dual purpose, one shaft in particular may be thought of as part of the winch, or part of the drive to the wheels, to sepaerate the winch from the engine would leave one or the other without a shaft that forms part of that unit. Thank you for your reply. As shaft BB is dedicated to powering the winch, and has no other purpose, some people might consider it to be part of the winch. I mean, if I had one of these winches for sale and you came along to buy it, I think you might be surprised if I didn't include this shaft BB in the sale on the grounds that it was not "technically" part of the winch. Edited January 23, 2009 by 6 X 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 24, 2009 Author Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) When I bought the Foden winch I fitted to one of my Matadors, it did not incude the propshaft. I had to make one up. The winch on the Martian, and on the Albion are all the same, but according to application the length of the Propshaft would vary. I doubt wether you could take the winch of a Martian, and fit it to an Albion, (in the right place) and retain the Leyland Propshaft. Since the propshaft is dependant on the vehicle the winch goes on, I would say it isn't part of the winch. I have seen this same winch Chain driven, hence no propshaft at all. And the propshaft is only any good if you have the PTO on a gearbox to drive it, so is the PTO part of the winch? If you wanted to drive a hydraulic pump, to fit a hydraulic winch on an Explorer (wouldn't a Martian recovery winch be nice!), you would need the PTO left on the vehicle... this discussion runs on and on, but the point is wheter the worm shaft is the start of the winch, or the propshaft, both lie horizontally, not "vertically," and that is the statement Radiomike had made I was questioning in this part of the thread. (although he qualifies his statement by only talking about the winch drum.) I am talking about the winch, and however you look at it, its first shaft and the drive to it lies horizontally. To take this further, on a ploughing engine the drive is turned through 90 degrees by a pair of bevel gears which give close to a 1:1 ratio, on the Wild winch, the drive is turned through 90 degrees by a worm and worm wheel, that gives a much much larger reduction. I can see no comonality between a ploughing engine winch, and the Wild, Scammell winch. The Scammell winch has its gears running in gearboxes, running on rolling element bearings and in an oilbath. The steam winch uses plain exposed bearings and a total loss lubrication system...The Scammell winch has machine cut, hardened steel teeth, the ploughing engine has cast iron teeth, whose shape is only obtained from a wooden pattern, used in sand casting, with no subsequent machining.... Edited January 24, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 X 6 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Since the propshaft is dependant on the vehicle the winch goes on, I would say it isn't part of the winch. I think you make your point very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antar Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 When I bought the Foden winch I fitted to one of my Matadors, it did not incude the propshaft. I had to make one up. The winch on the Martian, and on the Albion are all the same, but according to application the length of the Propshaft would vary. I doubt wether you could take the winch of a Martian, and fit it to an Albion, (in the right place) and retain the Leyland Propshaft. Since the propshaft is dependant on the vehicle the winch goes on, I would say it isn't part of the winch. I have seen this same winch Chain driven, hence no propshaft at all. And the propshaft is only any good if you have the PTO on a gearbox to drive it, so is the PTO part of the winch? If you wanted to drive a hydraulic pump, to fit a hydraulic winch on an Explorer (wouldn't a Martian recovery winch be nice!), you would need the PTO left on the vehicle... this discussion runs on and on, but the point is wheter the worm shaft is the start of the winch, or the propshaft, both lie horizontally, not "vertically," and that is the statement Radiomike had made I was questioning in this part of the thread. (although he qualifies his statement by only talking about the winch drum.) I am talking about the winch, and however you look at it, its first shaft and the drive to it lies horizontally. To take this further, on a ploughing engine the drive is turned through 90 degrees by a pair of bevel gears which give close to a 1:1 ratio, on the Wild winch, the drive is turned through 90 degrees by a worm and worm wheel, that gives a much much larger reduction. I can see no comonality between a ploughing engine winch, and the Wild, Scammell winch. The Scammell winch has its gears running in gearboxes, running on rolling element bearings and in an oilbath. The steam winch uses plain exposed bearings and a total loss lubrication system...The Scammell winch has machine cut, hardened steel teeth, the ploughing engine has cast iron teeth, whose shape is only obtained from a wooden pattern, used in sand casting, with no subsequent machining.... Mike, Mention of the Explorer gearbox PTO is interesting as I sold one a couple of weeks ago to a fairground chap from the Heathrow area as he had over winched and smashed 3 teeth of his ! John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davie Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well Davie, the round badge on my CX22 winch is riveted on the top triangular plate. Looking at diagram K2 on page 2 of this thread it is near where it states ; Section K Winch Thanks for that Ackack. I've had a look and found the remains of a steel plate, sadly not a nice brass one, also two rivets nearby where another plate has been but has rusted completely. All I can make out on the plate are the figures 2271. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Thanks for looking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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