what might come next?

[No Signals]

Busy rubbing down bits of the MW and this seems to be the only marking anywhere on the front. I have gone further than when I took the pic and didnt have the camera later in the day, but the bottom item is definitely a number 4. I've added a few lines and bits of white to show what has appeared. The other 'digit' above it appears to be less distinct and not as easy to trace. Any guesses as to what it might be? I'm pretty sure the vehicle is RAF origin rather than Army, but this does link to the other post I've put up about possible Service branch changes. Other than the olive around the numeral 4, the earliest paint on most of the vehicle is desert sand! For a 1944 vehicle this surprises me.

[Tony B]

The sand is nessercaly a suprise. I have now got two 1944 dated jerry cans on the Dodge, they are sand. They were landed through the Mulberry harbour at Aramonche, and stayed in the villiage of ver sur Mer, goldbeach, till about six weeks ago when they were given to Geoff Leese, who has a house there. He was kind enough to pass two onto me. They have always been sand.

[No Signals]

Not had chance to rub any more down on the front yet, but came across this under the seat covering. It seems a strange place to have a vehicle i.d. but it does seem to fit in with the 'style' of wartime nubers. Does anyone know the range of what the WW2 serial numbers went up to? Or where i might refer to to find out this info?

The paint scheme on the body went(latest first) blue/grey, blue/grey/ hi vis yellow. desert sand and then some parts (but no pattern to this) have olive green. Due to metal condition etc I'm of the opinion there is one main vehicle here and then odds and sods of panels etc from other donor trucks. Interesting if you like that kind of stuff. Boring as hell if you dont:)

[Tony B]

Could well be a bitsa, in the nicest possible way. A lot of vehicles were reconditioned after WW2 for Korea. Dodges were done in Germany, basically to create work, France did the Hotchkiss. Given the economic state of Europe in the late 1940' early '50's including England,might it be a central workshop rebuild?

[woa2]

I was talking to a relative of my landlady in Acton when I was there in the late 1970s, and he worked at Rootes during WW2 and just after. He remembered Dodges being reconditioned after WW2, and they tended to end up as a 'Bitsa' after the work. For example, if there was any problem with the engine, it wasn't investigated but a replacement new engine fitted instead. Dodges reconditioned had a Rootes plate fitted to them - I have only come across one of these since I knew what it meant.

As for other vehicles, any that went for a total rebuild, had a registration number in the R series, such as 12RA34 whereas vehicles not wanting a total rebuild but just an overhaul had a number at the end of the alphabet such as my WOA2 with 79YG18.

Hope this helps.

[Tony B]

That's a whole knew bit of info. My Dodge is ex Norwegian, theres an engine plate showing a change in 1962. I've heard that the US weren't to keen on the socialist goverment in 1945 and spares were hard to come by, so some were manufactured for US kit in use. Would you have a picture of the Roote's plate by any chance? The old guy who owns the yard where I keep mine, never tires of telling me he bought a 3 ton Dodge truck just after the war. He tells of rationed petrol, and the tricks to get round it, Overloading the truck, driving twenty four , thirty six hours at a time. Said he sold the truck in the end for enough to buy a house. As for English Army Dodges, they were used mostly in the Far East, and I've seen Indian Army pictures, including at the site of the Comet crash, did the UK leave them for the Indian Army at independence?

Edited July 27, 2008 by Tony B

[woa2]

That's a whole knw bit of info. My Dodge is ex Norwegian, theres an engine plate showing a change in 1962. I've heard that the US weren't to ken on the socialist goverment in 1945 and spares were hard to come by, so some were manufactured for US kit in use. You would have a picture of the Roote's plate by any chance?

No, sorry. I saw the plate on a Dodge at a friend's house, but it wasn't his vehicle.

The man from Rootes was called Ron, and I beleive the Dodges he was talking about were US and not British. Can't ask him as he died about 15 years ago.

Anyone else on the Forum have a Rootes rebuild plate on their Dodge?

[Tony B]

If we knew enough then to ask the questions we need to know the answers for now! Thanks for that started a whole new Hare of thought running. :-D

[Richard Farrant]

No, sorry. I saw the plate on a Dodge at a friend's house, but it wasn't his vehicle.

The man from Rootes was called Ron, and I beleive the Dodges he was talking about were US and not British. Can't ask him as he died about 15 years ago.

Anyone else on the Forum have a Rootes rebuild plate on their Dodge?

 

Robert,

 

About 20 years ago, a local dealer bought a load of jeeps from Norwegian military auctions, they were all in good order and appeared to be from reserve stocks. There were several with rebuild plates on the dash, Rootes Ltd., Manchester.

 

Richard

[Tony B]

Posted on the Dodge forum, Goran has one in Sweden, that came from Norway with a Rootes plate, apparently well covered in paint over the years but he's going to try and get a photo of it. Never seen these rebuild plates listed anywhere, time for photos I think and another section of the HMVF knowledge store. What other vehicles were rebuilt outside their home countries?

[Richard Farrant]

What other vehicles were rebuilt outside their home countries?

 

Regarding these Norwegian vehicles with Ministry of Supply and Rootes rebuild plates, I feel this was done before they were shipped to Norway as military aid. Might be wrong but thought the dates were late 40's or very early 50's.

[rippo]

Hello,

It may not be a bitsa! The olive green paint i think was the factory colour, i've seen it on a number of mws and is very similar to the first colour on mine. There were a number of campaigns after the war where it could have been painted sand then the raf blue on top of that when it came back. The raf number on the back of the seat is the one it would have had on the door or possiblly the bonnet. We restored a raf mw, we found a similar number on our doors and "cruising speed 30mph", under years of paint. The numbers can turn up anywhere i've seen them on the rocker cover, chassis, and back bodies, guess it came down to what the paint shop fancied at the time or how they intrepreted the instructions.

It looks like it may be the raf markings on the front. Maybe there'll be another number next to the four. The raf marking were usuall a capital letter, followed by a slash or a commar then a number, ours had M/44 on the wing, but i have seen other letters used, and in different places.

Boring!! this is the best bit, you never know what your going to find, and probably the best way of finding its history, rub very carefully!

[Tony B]

Silly question but were RAF vehicles in the Middle East painted sand? The RAF spent a lot of time out there 'Policing' the various tribes.

[M.Rimmer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did the RAF use blue on their vehicles during WW2? I know most airfield vehicles were green such as tractors,crash tenders,ambulances etc. The RAF mountain rescue vehicles in Snowdonia were green(Jeep,Humber ambulance,Commer truck).

 

As for finding the vehicle number on different parts,this was likely done during rebuild so all major parts went back to the same vehicle. There were bitsa's created during rebuild but usually only if a major component was damaged and replaced.

 

I have seen Rootes plates on American Dodge WC's and it seems these vehicles were the ones destined as aid to European countries. I have yet to see a vehicle sold into civilian ownership just after the war with a Rootes rebuild plate.

 

Matt.

 

Matt.

[STRIKE AND RETURN 460]

Hi all,

My MB has a brass Rootes Plate on the dash rebuilt in 1955 then sent to Norway. I have seen 4 jeeps with the same plate on all ex Norwegian.

[Adam Elsdon]

Silly question but were RAF vehicles in the Middle East painted sand? The RAF spent a lot of time out there 'Policing' the various tribes.

 

I have a picture of a Spitfire somewhere in North Africa with the ground support vehicles (CMP's i think) painted desert colours, i wouldnt have thought that they would of been using blue grey in that particular theatre, unless it was rushed into service. The RAF covered quite a sizeable area in that region, could also of been in malta, gibralta or even southern Italy....the worlds your oyster!

[79x100]

Mike Starmer in "British Army Colours & Disruptive Camouflage..." (Highly recommended) states that Air Ministry Order A.618 of 7/8/41 specified that all MT should be painted in KG No.3 with disruptive as per Army practice as since 1937 with the exception of France and the South of England since 1940, they had been Blue Grey No.33. I don't have his Middle East books but assume that blue grey was not used in war zones.

 

It may be a red herring but my old 109" Series 3 which had been a reserve stock vehicle at Recklinghausen had its serial number under the seat cushions as do most of the Radio Operator's seats that I've seen. Perhaps just a protection against the light-fingered ?

[No Signals]

The pattern for RAF vehicles after Sept. '43 was more or less the same as for Army vehicles and used the 'Mickey Mouse' disruptive pattern. From September '44 onwards the RAF used the British Standard War Emergency Standard Camouflage Colour which is olive drab, considered by some to be more drab than olive! All vehicles coming off the production line initially had this colour on them, so I am led to believe. However existing vehicles only had this applied to them as and when repainting was deemed necessary. Vehicles supplied to the Western Desert had the standard desert sand finish, but this is obviously pre-'44. I've found no specific references to vehicles in Italy or Gib.. Pictures I've seen of those in Malta tended to have the distinctive blockwork applied, but I make no claims for this being universal. My vehicle does seem to have desert sand as the bottom coat on quite a few main areas of it. The main exception being the front radiator surround piece. This does seem to have olive drab around the marking and an absence of desert sand, but all the other subsequent yellow and blue/ grey layers. My thought is that maybe the vehicle had a front end shunt and this lump is from a donor, as the paint layer pattern is different. Unfortunately if this is the case then it does mean that the marking is not for the 'master' vehicle. On this point the pic below seems to show what may be a letter 'M' coming out from the gunge. I note what Rippo says about his MW having M44 on the wing. (Mine has no surviving marks on the wings) Interestingly a document I was sent from the archives at Hendon gives no listings for the letter M being issued to any unit. One suggestion for this I have had is that it could in bad light or dirt be confused with H, in the same way G was not issued to avoid confusion with C. I dont state these as facts, just possible suggestions as to explain things. So I am interested that another vehicle has an M unit designation. If anyone needs to know the unit letter designations I will list them somewhere suitable. I will post the final results of the scraping as and when!

[Richard Farrant]

It may be a red herring but my old 109" Series 3 which had been a reserve stock vehicle at Recklinghausen had its serial number under the seat cushions as do most of the Radio Operator's seats that I've seen. Perhaps just a protection against the light-fingered ?

 

 

When vehicle went to Workshops, they were booked in at R&I (Receipts & Issues), there, all loose kit (CES) was removed, logged and stored until vehicle was ready for collection. It was quite normal for seat squabs, jacks, etc. to have the vehicle ARN marked on them.

[No Signals]

I think I have finally exposed as much of the white paintwork that remains. It does appear to be a freehand painted, as opposed to stenciled, M4 or M41. It may be that what appears to be a 1 is in fact part of the remains of a larger 4, as traces of this can be seen, even if they are not clear in the pic. What is interesting is the amount of black paint that appears to be underneath this white lettering on green. which could possibly indicate the presence of a different badge underneath. That will be the next stage in scraping off. Which incidentally in case anyone else is going to try the same sometime, I found to be much more controlable using a very sharp craft knife to scrape specific layers/particles rather than wet or dry paper which did prove a bit lacking in precision for me.