Ferret fluid flywheel seal

[simonm]

Clean, yes! The floor area is filthy, understandable as most of it is out of reach apart from a major teardown like this. Cleaning is mostly lots of old rags soaking up old oil, then its a vacuum as this seems to then leave loose dirt. and dirt Also I am painting a few parts, however most of the parts that have come out are in very good condition, I guess as these have been exposed to the oils and greases.

 

I'll post some more pictures shortly. Hope this is helpful. I looked all over the web for similar but seems to be absent, I suppose most people undertaking this sort of work just want to get on with it, I tend towards photographing all stages as then I know how to put it back!

[AndyFowler]

Excellent info Simon ! Thanks for taking the time to share it with us !

[griff66]

when i get time will post pics of interior of mine similar condition to yours and also after cleaning and painting one thing whilst prop covers are off check tightness of bolts quite a few of mine were loose and give them a squirt with the grease gun , :-)

[Toner]

More piccies and explanations please!

 

I've got to replace my gearbox and can always use simple explanations with big pictures ;-)

Edited August 9, 2010 by Toner
Arrghh typos!

[simonm]

I've got more images to download but here's a few comments that might be of use.

 

I've all but finished, I was called in for supper having replaced almost all the interior, but managed to start her - started 1st time.

 

The whole job took me 4 main sessions. An evening, say 2 to 3 hours to strip out the interior tin, then similar to separate the drive shafts and split the engine and gearbox. Actually replacing the seal was quick, say an hour and the same evening getting the gearbox and engine mated. This evening about 3 to 4 hours getting all bolted back together (and making sure wheel hubs are all lined up). So, about 12 hours overall.

 

With the fixed gantry, I relied on moving the ferret back and forth to shift the gearbox out of the way.

 

I physically couldn't have done it without the gantry and hoist, the engine leveller made it so much easier.

 

I bought a John Deere seal with the idea that two 'seals' are better than one and that it is newer and therefore should last better.

 

But, the original seal and retaining disc/plate fit together with the plate having a raised bevel that fits into an indentation within the correct seal (I photographed all next to each otehr and will post soonest), the JD has no indentation. This shouldn't be a problem as it would be easy to grind off the raised bevel (perhaps that's not the correct word). Actually I replaced with the correct seal and have the JD as a spare.

 

In my opinion there will be many seals going now, not necessarily through misuse but simply sheer age. The one I took out was like iron, no flexibility at all.

 

Refitting the gearbox was lots of brute strength and ignorance. While there are handy places to insert a crowbar to help move the gearbox and engine apart, there is nothing similar when re-mating. Having the hoist and using an engine "load leveller" which allows the gearbox to be very precisely levelled was very very helpful. Machine Mart do them relatively cheap.

 

Also, make sure you have lots of light. I braced a 150 watt halogen light in the top hatch.

 

The battery leads, wrap with tape before removing (and disconect all before passing any through holes of the battery boxes)

 

I couldn't get the seal out simply by removing the circlip and had to remove the main retaining plate. The threaded holes for removing the plate are 'fine'. Be very very careful when removing this plate, ie each of the three bolts that are inserted to split the plate from the flywheel should be screwed down a very small bit at a time. Again lots of light so as to see when the plate starts to separate.

[ferrettkitt]

I've got more images to download but here's a few comments that might be of use.

 

I've all but finished, I was called in for supper having replaced almost all the interior, but managed to start her - started 1st time.

 

The whole job took me 4 main sessions. An evening, say 2 to 3 hours to strip out the interior tin, then similar to separate the drive shafts and split the engine and gearbox. Actually replacing the seal was quick, say an hour and the same evening getting the gearbox and engine mated. This evening about 3 to 4 hours getting all bolted back together (and making sure wheel hubs are all lined up). So, about 12 hours overall.

 

With the fixed gantry, I relied on moving the ferret back and forth to shift the gearbox out of the way.

 

I physically couldn't have done it without the gantry and hoist, the engine leveller made it so much easier.

 

I bought a John Deere seal with the idea that two 'seals' are better than one and that it is newer and therefore should last better.

 

But, the original seal and retaining disc/plate fit together with the plate having a raised bevel that fits into an indentation within the correct seal (I photographed all next to each otehr and will post soonest), the JD has no indentation. This shouldn't be a problem as it would be easy to grind off the raised bevel (perhaps that's not the correct word). Actually I replaced with the correct seal and have the JD as a spare.

 

In my opinion there will be many seals going now, not necessarily through misuse but simply sheer age. The one I took out was like iron, no flexibility at all.

 

Refitting the gearbox was lots of brute strength and ignorance. While there are handy places to insert a crowbar to help move the gearbox and engine apart, there is nothing similar when re-mating. Having the hoist and using an engine "load leveller" which allows the gearbox to be very precisely levelled was very very helpful. Machine Mart do them relatively cheap.

 

Also, make sure you have lots of light. I braced a 150 watt halogen light in the top hatch.

 

The battery leads, wrap with tape before removing (and disconect all before passing any through holes of the battery boxes)

 

I couldn't get the seal out simply by removing the circlip and had to remove the main retaining plate. The threaded holes for removing the plate are 'fine'. Be very very careful when removing this plate, ie each of the three bolts that are inserted to split the plate from the flywheel should be screwed down a very small bit at a time. Again lots of light so as to see when the plate starts to separate.

 

The last time that I replaced the gearbox I used both MK1 feet to push the gearbox back into place. If you remove the little cover by the forward reverse lever on the left hand side of the box, you can rotate the nut which will then spin the input shaft on the gearbox helping the lining up of the shaft and fluid flywheel.

[simonm]

Below is a range of oil seals.

 

To the left is the old one that has been removed, the difference between new and old is very clear, the new one is obviously made of rubber, over many years and with some abuse this turns into an old bit of round wood.

 

To the right top is the new seal and the retaining washer which sits under the circlip. If you look carefully you will see the washer has a raised edge, this fits into the recess of the seal, I suppose pushing down to keep the seal lip in place.

 

Bottom middle is the John Deere seal, clearly of a quality and the right size, but it would need the raised edge of the washer to be ground down.

 

 

 

Ref John Deere seal and Washer, looking at it again, I guess the washer could simply be installed in reverse with the raised edge on the circlip side.

Edited September 13, 2010 by simonm
typo as always, and comment about JD and washer

[haybaggerman]

Great posts these, thanks for taking the time. Its the kind of thread some of us will try to turn up through a search in 2 years time when our own seals go.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[simonm]

And another picture. This time of the pressure tester that I made up.

 

The fluid flywheel filler caps are the same thread as the fairly standard plumbing fitting (non metric) that bolts into header tanks. All you do then is solder a few extra bits of pipe down to 10mm which fits perfectly onto a tyre airline, you do have to sacrifice the bit that actually fits on the tyre. In my case I had a spare having run over one last year and cracked it. Never throw anything out !

 

The plumbing wrench is needed to get a reasonable seal, make sure you have a decent sized O ring.

 

 

All back together and running well very well, the engine that is. I've now changed both filler cap seals as I still had a leak. It ran for 10 miles without losing anything then dropped a whole puddle of fluid. I've since refilled and pressure tested. It holds a pressure, I can hear bubbling at 25psi but it seems to retain a pressure at about 10psi. Again a short run and she hasn't lost any fluid so I am hoping it was just the old filler seals, which I must admit fell apart on removal. I'll be taking her for a few more runs over the weekend which should confirm all is well - or not!

 

The other thing that I must revisit is the alignment of the wheels and the filler caps. When the gearbox was disconnected I jacked up all the wheels and lined up the hub filler caps before reconnecting the drive shafts. Best laid plans of mice and men, now she is on the ground they are all over the place! All runs okay, just looks very very wound up!

[simonm]

A follow up on what is now looking like a bit of a saga.

 

I took her for a few short runs 1 -2 miles and didn't lose any fluid. A longer run 5 miles mostly downhill and again no loss of fluid, back home and literally as a drove in to the yard she shed a load of oil / fluid! I've since tested her on short and long runs, basically as soon as she gets warm (and/or I use a higher gear) when I stop I lose about a litre of fluid.

 

Now, looking at the flywheel (through the inspection hatch) it appears dry, even spinning it so where any fluid might have leaked and run from the main seal, nothing obvious. I've clearly got to have it out again, should be a lot quicker 2nd time round, but any thoughts on what to look for?

 

Before doing that I'll lift the gearbox cover and see if there is any movement on shaft going to the flywheel - not done this before so I'm only guessing that there will be something to see. Very frustrating

[Richard Farrant]

Now, looking at the flywheel (through the inspection hatch) it appears dry, even spinning it so where any fluid might have leaked and run from the main seal, nothing obvious.

 

Before doing that I'll lift the gearbox cover and see if there is any movement on shaft going to the flywheel - not done this before so I'm only guessing that there will be something to see. Very frustrating

 

Hi Simon,

 

I recollect you only pulled the seal housing to change the seal. If it had overheated previously, the gasket around the rim might have suffered, perhaps it did not show on testing as it was cold ( both casing and oil). Somehow I do not think the centre bearings are worn or you would see signs of oil flung from the centre.

[simonm]

Hi Richard

 

The gearbox is ciming out again whatever the problem .. actually she is leaking worse and worse so I think you are right. I'm also a bit concerned as the transmission noise is not what I would call healthy. Loud yes, I can understand that as I am sitting inside the engine compartment, but I'm sure there is something not quite right.

 

This time round should be quite quick!

 

PS. Follow on from the above, transmission coming out, easier second time round and managed to identify that one of the CV joints (to rear right of driver) is very worn and almost certainly why I am getting so much noise. Actually a relief as this will be relatively easy to fix with the right part available.

 

Simon

Edited September 22, 2010 by simonm
Added the PS.

[simonm]

Transmission out and another pressure test, yes its bubbling round the edge of the flywheel and in particular where the screw holes are (the ones which I guess are for seperating the plates)

 

Also removed one of the the Universal Joints. One of the cups totally loose. No, its not worn but the wrong one! (ie of the maltese cross, cups and roller bearings, all greased, no real sign of wear on the cross but one of the four cups is totally loose on the shaft. It looks like the right part but not internally, so at some time some idiot bodged it!)

 

It looks like it was fitted during whenever there was a major service or from new! As all is painted the same as other transmission parts silver not blue.

 

Replacement daimler ferret UJ (universal joint) . The one that fits and has all the same characteristics is for an old style Ford Transit, Qh QL528 there are cheaper available apparently to the right specs but the body is fatter and won't "fit" when being installed. I doubt that anybody will ever see one of these UJs fail as they are inside the cab.

Edited September 24, 2010 by simonm
adding part no

[simonm]

Reinstalled - for second time - fluid flywheel having resealed the plates together. The gasket was in a very poor condition, there was little effort required to 'break' the plates apart. All teh internals appeared good, the bearings were firm. I re-assembled and pressure tested, all fine but I let i go just over 25psi and got a leak on the plate seal, perhaps soft gasket goo (not the rubber seal on the drive shaft) took it apart again, re-assembled and kept the pressure test lower, fine this time.

 

Lined up all the wheels, front nearside sticking so freed that one, just tight brakes.

 

Re-assembled the lot and have since driven 20 miles at up to 35mph, driving well and no sign of a leak!

 

Now its back to sanding and painting - when the rain stops!

Edited October 9, 2010 by simonm
typo

[AndyFowler]

Nice one Simon , good to hear you've sussed it !

[Toolman]

excellent mate

 

Good Job!

[Rangie]

What a transmission system!!!!

 

Alec.

[robin craig]

Looking at your posts all sounds reasonable.

 

We have, regretably to do this job as we found out today.

 

So to recap, one has to support the engine before starting. So in my mind I am going to make up a bridge to fit over the engine bay with a chain and hook mechanism with a thread involved so that I can get the tension on the engine before undoing the gearbox assy from it.

 

Any comments on that idea?

 

R

[ferrettkitt]

Looking at your posts all sounds reasonable.

 

We have, regretably to do this job as we found out today.

 

So to recap, one has to support the engine before starting. So in my mind I am going to make up a bridge to fit over the engine bay with a chain and hook mechanism with a thread involved so that I can get the tension on the engine before undoing the gearbox assy from it.

 

Any comments on that idea?

 

R

 

More likely you would want to place a piece of wood under the gearbox where it meets the engine. With it pushed in tightly it makes it easier to pull the box back without it sliding on the painted floor. The engine should be held in place by the center mounts that 'r' attached to the base of the battery boxes. Presuming the mounts 'r' in place that is...

 

If you can get a long extension bar for the socket set (approx 2ft long) it makes it easier to undo the two lowest nuts on the bottom of the gearbox. At least thats what I have found.

[robin craig]

Andy,

 

Thanks for your comments, the idea of a bridge to support the engine is just a precaution and an aide for the job, I remember those brackets you describe and I cant say that their strength fills me with confidence. Im just trying to give myself the best chance of success and eliminate possible glitches. Welding and fabricating is an in house skill and would not take us too long to make.

 

To move the gearbox assembly forward would be done with a chain fall system and a leveler as shown in the pictures, seems the most sane way to do it without pulling the power pack, which we have done before and I guess at the time we should have looked at that seal as prudence, and we will be paying the price now. Funny how people ram rod a job and small details get ommited that come back to bite one in the derriere.

 

R

[ferrettkitt]

Andy,

 

Thanks for your comments, the idea of a bridge to support the engine is just a precaution and an aide for the job, I remember those brackets you describe and I cant say that their strength fills me with confidence.

 

R

 

If you leave the engine in and the petrol tank more the petrol tank really you won't have anything to attach the chain too. Those center mounts r quite strong but I added a piece of wood under the fluid flywheel as a precaution as I quite like my fingers on my hand.

 

I'm sure that I have seen an engine running without the gearbox attached in the hull and balanced on those mounts. Doesn't mean that its correct or safe though and in the end its what keeps you're fingers and thumbs safe that matters.

 

Funny how people ram rod a job and small details get ommited that come back to bite one in the derriere.

 

R

 

Isn't that the truth!

[simonm]

When I did it, I didn't provide any additional suuport for the engine - and got away with it.

 

Note that I had to do a gearbox out, twice, as the main leak turned out to be on teh join between the two halves of the fluid flywheel. Make sure you pressure test - but NO MORE than 25psi, actually I would restrict it to 20psi.

 

If you do re-seal the two plates, take great care with pressure testing, if you have used gasket goo, it can simply blow it away (happened to me) I then re-applied and ran a length of plumbers (not gas, its too thick in my opinion) ptfe tape round a few times plus gasket goo, make sure its okay with hydraulic fluid.

[61Ferret]

Hi All. Last fall, I introduced myself as the new owner of Ferret 00DC75. Since then I've carried out some repairs such as carb/fuel pump rebuild, inside sandblasting/coating of fuel tank and changing/top-up of all oils. After a recent drive, I noticed that a fair bit of oil had accumulated at the bottom of the engine bay and a lesser amount had run forward along the bottom of the Ferret towards the drivers seat. I suspected this as being from the fluid flywheel as oil was thin with very little odour. I opened the flywheel filler plug and fluid level was down from being just recently topped up. There did not appear to be any fresh oil spun out from the flywheel seal area and it looked as though there may have been some fresh oil/wet areas around the flanged edge where the front and rear casing are bolted together. Area around the filler plugs was also dry. I've just finished removing the flywheel and before reassembling with RTV gasket sealant and a new flywheel seal, I thought I would ask the following question. Is it possible that oil could be leaking out from the back of the front casing/flywheel front center. Hope this question is clear or makes sense. It was interesting to note that all bolts on the flywheel casing backed off easily, there were no securing strips on any of the bolts and the rear casing came forward or easily seperated from the front casing.

Terry

 

Paul,

 

I would like a fiver for every one I've changed.

 

What do you want to know? The gearbox has to come out, at least pulled forward enough for access. Assume you have the relevant EMER's? The correct seal is difficult to get hold of now, due to shape to accomodate the special washer that stops the lip from deforming. May be able to find one for you. You are certain it is the seal leaking and not one of the plugs or around the flange joint? Seal should be pressed in and not hammered in as this is sure to mishap the seal and then leak. Oil is a very thin hydraulic fluid, Army designation is OM13, this means nothing in civvy street, so you need to ask for ISO10 grade. Morris Lubricants at Shrewsbury make it. I always pressure test after overhaul and filling to check for leaks. On rare occasions, cracks have been found in the outer cover.

 

Just noticed yours is a Mk1/2, if you wanted the gearbox right out for any reason, like cleaning, repainting, etc.. The "turret" would have to be unbolted from the hull.

 

Richard