What are these cars, please?

[10FM68]

Here are two photographs of cars from WWII.  The first is of a car used by a British regiment in Italy in 1945.  I assumed it was Italian, note it is RHD, but, although it is similar to a Fiat, it isn't identical.  It is also similar to a French Delage, but, again, not identical.  Can anyone put me out of my misery?

The second is a car in use by HQ 21st Army Group.  It is a fairly important one, it's fitted with a star plate and pole for a pennant and is immediately behind one carrying Monty and the PM.  It has something on the roof making it look like a taxi, but I assume that will be a field-manufactured light-up 'priority' sign.  I can't decide whether it's British or captured - I suspect the former.  Clearly, it is polished, though muddy in the picture - note the chrome windscreen surround.  There is also a number plate under the bumper which may indicate requisitioned, but it seems a bit late for that in NWE 1944.  So again, any ideas, please?

Finally, just to give something back rather than be entirely on the take, I enclose this photo which I recently decoded.  Apparently it is a ... horse ambulance!  I wasn't expecting that!

Edited November 12, 2023 by 10FM68

[Rootes75]

The second car would be a Humber Pullman Limousine.

[MatchFuzee]

Doesn't give the make of car but a caption for the first photo:-

1st Battalion, King’s Own Royal Regiment, MT Driver and staff car, Italy, 1944-45. Marking on car indicates 56th London Division, so possibly as late as 1946.

From:-

http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/ko2603.htm

[10FM68]

Thank you Rootes 75.  Of course!  Quite why I didn't get that one I don't know, but it looks too narrow for such an imposing car - particularly when viewed with the Snipe in the foreground.  But, you're right, no doubt about it.  Thank you.

As for the first, thanks MF for the link to the regiment.  I had that info, but I didn't have that photo which is actually a bit clearer - note the 'CAP' in front of the census number and the emblem on the grille.  Still don't know what it is though.

Would people agree that this one is a Tatra 57 Kubel?

And can anyone tell me what this is?  The bustle boot at the rear suggests it isn't a Ford or Chevrolet.  I was thinking GM of some sort, but I'm not sure what.

And, finally, what do we make of this?  This photo, cropped, was used by Bart Vanderveen many years ago but it is interesting as the Brit is unarmed, the driver appears to be German and the staff cars in the background are also German with another, apparently German or two, tending them.  So, is the Brit a POW or are the Germans POWs and running a car service for a British HQ? It was taken in North Africa I am sure, but under what circumstances?

Edited November 13, 2023 by 10FM68

[Niels v]

this is a 1938 Ford Delux Phaeton

and these two are Chevrolets and a Horch/Opel/Wandere on the fare left 

see Another Umbau-wagen? - MLU FORUM (mapleleafup.net)

 

[10FM68]

33 minutes ago, Niels v said:

this is a 1938 Ford Delux Phaeton

and these two are Chevrolets and a Horch/Opel/Wandere on the fare left 

 

see Another Umbau-wagen? - MLU FORUM (mapleleafup.net)

 

Many thanks, Niels, yes, after all it is a Ford.  I do find identifying late 30s/early 40s cars quite tricky (as you can tell).  Thank you also for identifying the German Chevrolets - I had the Wanderer/Horch/Opel Kubel, but wasn't sure whether the other two were German Fords or something else.  So, back to the Italian job - any ideas?

[10FM68]

Another interesting photo I had in my collection - thanks to Shutterstock, whom I acknowledge:

A straightforward Guy Quad - no issues there, but I do wonder what the RTR sergeant is up to.  I hope he isn't about to drive away - not with that, what appears to be, large wooden signboard stuck inside his rear wheelarch!

As for the Italian car - Lancia Aprilia or Alfa Romeo, so far, any takers?

[Niels v]

17 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Another interesting photo I had in my collection - thanks to Shutterstock, whom I acknowledge:

A straightforward Guy Quad - no issues there, but I do wonder what the RTR sergeant is up to.  I hope he isn't about to drive away - not with that, what appears to be, large wooden signboard stuck inside his rear wheelarch!

As for the Italian car - Lancia Aprilia or Alfa Romeo, so far, any takers?

I would say the Lancia, as the badge sits down in the grill, 

[Rootes75]

Yes, the Alfa badge sits at the top of the grill and the Alfa script is usually lower down on the left side of the grill. 

[10FM68]

Thank you both for your contribution, I am most grateful.  Yes, I think the Lancia has it!  So, that's cleared up a couple of anomalies for me, thank you.

[10FM68]

Courtesy Getty Images on the internet. 

OK, then, here's another one I can't identify.  It is Gen Horrocks's staff car - note the 30 Corps pennant on the radiator and the '17' - Corps HQ AOS sign on the wing.  But, what is it?  It will be something smart - otherwise he'd have stuck to his Humber.  It has a very odd grille (but is that a REME botch-job to support the pennant staff?)  There are suicide doors, which narrows it down a bit and a very plain front bumper, but with a prominent lump in the centre (Opel?), no overriders (not very Opel - nor posh), eaziclene wheels and the swage line drops away markedly across the door.  It is alo a cabriolet (tourer) with very shallow quarterlights (very Opel).  Judging by the Dodge behind, I suspect this was taken during the Battle of The Bulge fighting in Dec 44.  I can't find any other picture of it on the internet.  So, over to you - Opel Super 6, perhaps with a coachbuilt body?  Or what?

[10FM68]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:03 PM, Niels v said:

this is a 1938 Ford Delux Phaeton

and these two are Chevrolets and a Horch/Opel/Wandere on the fare left 

see Another Umbau-wagen? - MLU FORUM (mapleleafup.net)

 

It seems that this photo was taken on Rhodes after the German surrender in Greece.  The British officer is being chauffeured by a retired Wehrmacht driver.

[goanna]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:13 AM, 10FM68 said:

and the staff cars in the background are also German

The two nearest are 1939 Chevrolet 'umbau-wagons' Bart wrote a article on these vehicles in a W&T edition.  

[10FM68]

4 hours ago, goanna said:

The two nearest are 1939 Chevrolet 'umbau-wagons' Bart wrote a article on these vehicles in a W&T edition.  

 

4 hours ago, goanna said:

The two nearest are 1939 Chevrolet 'umbau-wagons' Bart wrote a article on these vehicles in a W&T edition.  

Thanks for that, Goanna, but that question has been answered - it's Horrocks's car details I'm after now.  My own fault for putting up that post about Rhodes after I asked the Horrocks question.

[10FM68]

Any ideas at all on Horrocks' ride?

Here's another one - a couple of questions: does anyone know why some British vehicles had their frnot diffs painted white as well as the rear ones?  It is much more common in photos than it ought to be, I would have thought as I can't think of any good reason why.  Here's an example - a K9WD - probably from a TA push.  This photo is also interesting as it shows that the brightwork on the radiator, which is normally missing on service vehicles, is either still there, or has been replaced.  And who, I wonder are Penny's Light Horse?

[Citroman]

Convoi driving at night?

[Noel7]

Is https://www.flickr.com/photos/dhwright/3589819896/ any help? 

[10FM68]

2 hours ago, Citroman said:

Convoi driving at night?

That's what the ones at the rear are for, certainly, but that wouldn't exlpain why the front ones are painted white.

[10FM68]

1 hour ago, Noel7 said:

Is https://www.flickr.com/photos/dhwright/3589819896/ any help? 

Absolutely - you've given me an ID of the unit - it was, as I suspected, TA, but, also an ID on another photo I have which is of the DAC on the ranges - I had it down as another unit altogether.  Interesting also to see the ther phots and to see how clear they are.  It is a period I am most interested in, so it was very pleasing to see the other photos.  Many thanks, Noel.

[fv1609]

1 hour ago, 10FM68 said:

That's what the ones at the rear are for, certainly, but that wouldn't exlpain why the front ones are painted white.

Looking at the parts list the front "gear carrier assembly with differential case and gears" & all components therein are identical to the rear.

So could this front diff have originally been a rear diff that had been painted white & after refurbishment just happens to have been fitted to the front?

Because I can find no reference to the requirement to paint the front diff white in a host of period documents such as WD Road Transport Regulations 1963, Notes on MT Transport 1954,  Equipment Regulations 1959, Movement by Road 1941, Road Movement 1956  etc which lay down the marking & painting requirements that include the painting of the rear diff.

[10FM68]

17 minutes ago, fv1609 said:

Looking at the parts list the front "gear carrier assembly with differential case and gears" & all components therein are identical to the rear.

So could this front diff have originally been a rear diff that had been painted white & after refurbishment just happens to have been fitted to the front?

Because I can find no reference to the requirement to paint the front diff white in a host of period documents such as WD Road Transport Regulations 1963, Notes on MT Transport 1954,  Equipment Regulations 1959, Movement by Road 1941, Road Movement 1956  etc which lay down the marking & painting requirements that include the painting of the rear diff.

It is possible, of course, but it is really quite common to find it in pictures taken in the 50s.  There are two likely possibilities: ignorance or bull!  It is quite possible that some MT NCOs either knew no better or thought that it would look good - as, I suspect, is the case of the RMP Escort Jeep above. - simply a soldier getting a bit enthusiastic with the white paint.  It is also possible, I suppose, that it was done so that oil leaks were easier to spot - but we're strating to stretch things a bit now.  But, as you say, I don't think it was done for any official reason.  I have several photos of a unit in Malaya with brand new Fordson E2 binners and they all have white front diffs, as do the units Ford WOT6 Mashy wagons.

Now, as we're making no progress with the General's motor, can anyone help with identifying the aircraft in this picture?  Look at the engine nacelles - they rule out the usual suspects: Anson or Oxford.

Edited Saturday at 10:13 PM by 10FM68

[goanna]

9 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Now, as we're making no progress with the General's motor, can anyone help with identifying the aircraft in this picture?  Look at the engine nacelles - they rule out the usual suspects: Anson or Oxford.

If the scene is in Malaya the aircraft may be a Japanese Tachikawa Ki-54 but the engines don't look correct. Maybe the original radial engines were changed ?

Edited Sunday at 07:18 AM by goanna

[10FM68]

Well, no, but you have pointed me in what I suspect is the right direction. Looking at the Tachikawa Ti-54 on Google I found the SNCAC Martinet - a French aircraft which has the right shaped engine nacelles and seems to be rather close.  What do you think?  Photo courtesy Frenchwings.  - not identical, perhaps one or two differences - the DF loop and vent above the window, and, it is possible the nose isn't quite as 'Roman', but  certainly close.

[Citroman]

.

Edited Sunday at 11:58 AM by Citroman

[David Herbert]

The whole structure of the cockpit is different and the nose is more pointy on the Martinet so I don't think so.

Getting close though.

David