BRITISH MID WAR VEHICLE COLOURS

[Bobcat]

Reading up on the subject it seems that pre war British vehicles were painted bronze green, then by the time ww2 broke out, they were being painted Khaki Green number 3. However due to green pigment being impossible to source after late 1941, they were painted SCC2 Service Brown and stayed that way until the end of the war, except for new vehicles produced and painted after 1944 in the British version of Olive Drab, that is different from the American version for no good reason.  Does this mean that almost every green British vehicle we see on the circuit is painted wrong, or are the writers of the paint schemes books mistaken.    https://www.trackpadpublishing.com/tilly-colours

[simon king]

The books are usually written with reference to the appropriate Army Council Instructions (ACIs) and Military Training Pamphlets (MTPs).

Reality does not always follow the published guidance but units were only supposed to repaint vehicles into the new schemes when 

(a) stocks of the existing paints ran out

and

(b) the vehicle needed repainting

 

Draw your own conclusions, but if you want to paint your 1942 truck in pink with purple spots, it’s your truck and you can paint it how you want….hang on pink with purple patches was probably an experimental LRDG scheme anyway😉

[Rootes75]

Through choice we are painting our 1942 Commer Q2 in SCC2 Brown, yes because it's appropriate to the year but also because we've found traces of service brown under layers of postwar greens.

[Bobcat]

52 minutes ago, Rootes75 said:

Through choice we are painting our 1942 Commer Q2 in SCC2 Brown, yes because it's appropriate to the year but also because we've found traces of service brown under layers of postwar greens.

Yes I've also found traces of SCC2 under the layers of paint on my 1943 Tilly. It seems to have been bronze green originally with service brown on top of that followed by RAF blue and a couple of layers of Nato Green. The RAF colours were presumably when it was used in a Movie in the 1960s.

[Bobcat]

9 hours ago, simon king said:

The books are usually written with reference to the appropriate Army Council Instructions (ACIs) and Military Training Pamphlets (MTPs).

Reality does not always follow the published guidance but units were only supposed to repaint vehicles into the new schemes when 

(a) stocks of the existing paints ran out

and

(b) the vehicle needed repainting

 

Draw your own conclusions, but if you want to paint your 1942 truck in pink with purple spots, it’s your truck and you can paint it how you want….hang on pink with purple patches was probably an experimental LRDG scheme anyway😉

As a re enactor and living historian it needs to fit in with what I portray, so I want  to represent it how it might have looked in service in 1942/43  At the moment it's in Nato Green with big white stars on it..

[Rangie]

The later British Olive Drab, does anyone have a reference to a suitable product or paint code, perhaps a BS381 number?

Also, is there reference to when they went away from the Olive Drab to DBG? 1951 seems to ring a bell 🤔

[Noel7]

This may help:

https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/20626-what-colour/

There are colour cards on the internet for BS 987C, but colours displayed on screen may vary somewhat owing to differences between monitors and the difference in presentation between an electronic medium and actual paint.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Noel7
additional text

[sirhc]

1 hour ago, Rangie said:

The later British Olive Drab, does anyone have a reference to a suitable product or paint code, perhaps a BS381 number?

Also, is there reference to when they went away from the Olive Drab to DBG? 1951 seems to ring a bell 🤔

BS381C shade 298 ‘Olive Drab’

[simon king]

The Colour Police will undoubtedly say that BS381c No298 is not actually the same as SCC15 Olive Drab, but given that there were probably some natural variations in colour - due to the fact that paint colours were mixed by formula and by eye in those days - it’s probably within the range of SCC15 variations seen. No computerised mixing or photo spectrometers in those days after all.

[10FM68]

I think the colour you are after is SCC15 which was introduced in 1944.  It is an olive drab, but not the same shade as US olive drab - or drabs as the US also had a number of different shades over time.  Nor is it the same as the 1970s olive drab which morphed into the IRR greens and NATO greens used for 20-30 years thereafter of which there was a surprising variety depending whether it was factory applied and, if so, by what factory (Land Rover IRR green differs slightly from Bedford green and so on), or whether it was applied in the unit by brush or sprayed, from a new tin, or an old one, with thinners or without etc etc.  Interestingly, this later NATO green is remarkably close to the colour used by the BEF, but that's another story.

Here is a picture of a column of Daimler Armoured Cars and Daimler Dingoes of the Westminster Dragoons taken in the early-mid 50s.  I can't acknowledge ownership of the photos as I have no idea who took them.  You will see straight away the difference between the SCC15 of the Dingo and first DAC and the Deep Bronze Green of the second DAC.  I think the colours are pretty close to reality judging from the peripherals - uniforms etc.  Note also that, being a TA cavalry unit, the vehicles are polished so, effectively satin to gloss whereas SCC15 should have been matt.

DBG was introduced from the early 1950s but, bearing in mind how large the army was in those days, it would have been several years before the entire fleet had changed - probably well into the second half of the 50s, if not later in some cases.  I can, for example, clearly remember from around 1980, the TA searchlight squadron's 1937 Lister-engined generators having the faded 'Mickey Mouse Ear' camouflage patterns on their canvas sides!  Of course all the new generation of vehicles such as the new CT range, Ferrets, Saracens etc would have been factory painted in DBG while even Centurion Mk3/Vs would have appeared in SCC15.  In other words, I think, SCC15 hung around a lot longer than is generally thought.

Edited May 31, 2023 by 10FM68

[Rangie]

Great answers there folks, very much appreciated, thanks ☺️

There is the other rabbit hole whereby equipment would be supplied in "X", often DBG gloss from the 50s-on and then externally painted in whatever the unit demanded (IRR/Matt/Olive/Khaki/Camo), but that's a different hair-pulling exercise...

Alec.

[10FM68]

58 minutes ago, Rangie said:

 

There is the other rabbit hole whereby equipment would be supplied in "X", often DBG gloss from the 50s-on and then externally painted in whatever the unit demanded (IRR/Matt/Olive/Khaki/Camo), but that's a different hair-pulling exercise...

Alec.

That's true.  Any equipment still in service in the early 1970s would be gradually painted in one or other of the various 'drab greens you mention.  This would, of course, include any residual WWII vehicles - Bedford QL office wagons for example and Leyland Hippos, Diamond Ts, Macks - probably some other types survived that long, long enough to be repainted.  The other interesting thought is about vehicles which were factory painted in light stone in the 50s and 60s when garrisons were still maintained in the Middle East.  It is tempting to think that vehicles in use in those theatres were supplied in DBG in the factory and then repainted in theatre, but it seems that wasn't the case.  Certain contracts would be let for batches of vehicles to be supplied in light stone from the start.  Certainly this can be seen with Land Rovers which were clearly light stone all over.  And, of course, this has been repeated in recent years with stuff for Iraq and Afghanistan being factory-painted in light stone.

[Piston Broke]

There are some very good booklets on WW2 British vehicle colours, self published by Mike Starmer.  They are aimed at modellers, but contain all the info and painted colour chips.  There are four, covering the desert campaign, Sicily & Italy, the Caunter scheme and NW Europe,  all priced at arounf  £15. If anyone needs Mike's contact details, I have them filed away somewhere.