Help with Thingy Unit History

[Egg Bango]

Hi all, 

I’m four years into a slow refurb of my ‘76 project Thingy FFR OAW 146P, but still haven’t figured out which units she served with.

Looks like she went into service with the Royal Artillery Jan ‘76, sold 11th July ‘85 / ‘86 to its first civvy owner via Walker, Walton & Hanson, OSDD Ruddington:

Question is, who are these units and what role did they provide?

VBP32 LT REGT RA

1 QC HOLDERS

1 QUEENS

1 QUEENS R/PTY

VBT VEH DEPOT ASHCHURCH

111 ENG REGT 130 FDSQN

VD ASHCHURCH

111 ENG REGT 130 FD SQN

I R ANGLIAN

2 QUEENS

When I bought her, she had the Commando Dagger insignia on the bonnet, but looking at the above units, I suspect that was wishful thinking by the previous owner? Now removed and replaced with the Royal Artillery ‘Fire over water’ insignia which I hope is a correct reflection of a unit she served with.

Help appreciated from those who can decode the history.

[Richard Farrant]

The second holding unit is actually 1st Queens Own Highlanders

[10FM68]

Gleaning what I can from the internet and making a few assumptions, I would offer the following:

Your Land Rover started life with 32 Light Regiment Royal Artillery at Wing Barracks, Bulford.  They were equipped with 105mm pack howitzers at that time.  At the end of 1977 they re-equipped as 32 Guided Weapons Regiment RA with Swingfire.  The establishment (holdings of personnel and kit) would have changed, of course, and one of the losses was your Land Rover which went to the 1^st Battalion, The Queen’s Own Highlanders who were in Ritchie Camp Kirknewton, Edinburgh.  They kept it for 2 years but in December 1979 they were posted to Northern Ireland where they took over their predecessors’ vehicles and your Land Rover stayed in GB and was passed to 1^st Battalion, The Queen’s Regiment based in Howe Barracks, Canterbury.  It would have been used for their pre-Northern Ireland training as they deployed on a short tour there in the April.  In September 1980 the battalion went off to Belize and left your Land Rover behind with their rear party.  They came back in Jun 81 and took it back on charge of the battalion main body.  They kept it then until they deployed to Northern Ireland in November 1982 when your vehicle was sent to the Central Vehicle Depot at Ashchurch.  While it was there it was drawn for temporary use (probably an exercise) by 130 Field Squadron (Volunteers) of 111 Engineer Regiment (V) which was a Central Volunteer HQ (CVHQ)-sponsored unit, i.e.not maintained at full establishment all the time (hence its need to draw vehicles from store for exercises).  CVHQ was based at Minley Manor, near Camberley.  A month later, in June 83 it was returned to store until being issued to the 1^st Battalion, The Royal Anglian Regiment whose barracks were at Oakington near Cambridge.  This battalion was replaced by the 2^nd Battalion, The Queen’s Regiment in November 1984 and they kept it until it was struck off strength in June the following year – 1985.

Edited April 6, 2022 by 10FM68

[ruxy]

3/6/1985  final entry  ,  Walker, Watson & Hanson  -  they were the auctioneers at Ordnance Disposal Depot Ruddington, Nr. Nottingham  - until closure for vehicle disposals  (then private auction sites used).

[10FM68]

Walker, WALTON & Hanson, not Watson.

[robin craig]

You had my attention when the thread title was all about a "thingy"

Had no idea what it was.....

 

[Egg Bango]

I’m amazed, thanks for the great responses from all of you, and in particular @10FM68 - that is a wonderful offering, a brilliant interpretation, I’ll take it! No surprise she was an ordinary work horse for many units and didn’t see action, but there is honour in that.

Would my LR have towed a 105mm pack howitzer, or would 32 Light Regiment have used something else as the tractor?

I found the following, not my LR obviously but useful to see they were used to tow:

 

[10FM68]

A lightweight is capable of towing a pack howitzer, but they weren't used for that and certainly not FFRs. The gun tractors were long wheelbase Land Rovers. As an FFR, yours would probably have been used by someone in the command structure, perhaps a troop or battery commander, a gun position officer, battery captain or the like. In the infantry battalions similarly, perhaps a company commander, even a CO, but it's difficult to be certain.  Generally, the more senior you were in a unit or formation, the more likely you were to get a long wheelbase as they were more comfortable with more room for the radio operator and all the kit of three people.  That having been said, I know of one divisional commander, a major general, who used a lightweight for his Rover Group. And pretty tight it was! Yours would almost certainly have towed a half-ton trailer.

[ruxy]

In my book a Lightweight FFR is only truly a FFR if fitted with a URS  (Unitary Radio Station)  these were made by DCM Products (Coventry) Ltd.  This was a neat package to house radio and batteries (more so than was done with a 109" FFR).   In theory (so the blurb says) they can be lifted out and used in ground role to free up the truck as a GS Cargo - fine.  How many strong men it would take out in the field to do this - I don't know  ?

         You will see some LWT  FFR  "show vehicles"  with four antenna and Dexion mounting a Manpack cradle - a £ cost effective way to make more interesting , often other bolt-ons just add to the fiction.    The URS are quite rare now and can be quite £ expensive and in most cases the proper RadOp sliding seat (very rare) has to be obtained along with antenna sliders  etc.  Battery trays  (GRP)  are rare.    I would guestimate that there were far more Army FFR  LWT  than there were ever URS , so many FFRs were in fact used in the Cargo role (normally only 12 volt GS had rear seats).    Quite a few  LWT that were fitted with NI  VPK were in fact FFR's but I very much doubt if they had a URS fitted or even needed the BIG genny to power it.    Some FFR were winterised ,  some were winterised for Heli-Start ,   some of the last built were rated 24 volt  NON-FFR   - used in main for Heli-Start.

[10FM68]

An FFR, to me, and I think most people, is one which is designated as such in the build specification: i.e with 24 volt electrics, suppression and so on: designed for carrying and operating radios (as you say, some 24V 90A Land Rovers were built for helistart and would not, therefore, be equipped with combat net radio, though they might have a "Pyephone" or equivalent for airfield/FARP/FOB use). 

An FFR would be more expensive than a GS and would have been bought against a requirement with a view to keeping numbers to a minimum - where a GS could do the role, an FFR would not be issued.  Vehicles would be issued to a unit establishment based on that requirement - a "scale of issue" - so FFRs for appointments which required combat net radios, such as the command chain, while GS vehicles would be issued for use by others not required to be on the command net - such as the quartermaster's staff, cooks, chaplain and others with, largely admin and support roles.  The scale of issue of radios would, of course, match that of the vehicles provided to carry them (plus a scale of spares, probably, depending on their assessed reliability).

So if a unit were on exercise or operations, it would be normal for FFRs to be used in the radio role and GS in others.  Around camp - for domestic use, duty driver, etc, it is quite likely that an FFR might be used in the GS role, but, it wouldn't have seats in the back of course and its URS (battery boxes, radio racks etc (for other types of FFR Land Rover) would get in the way.  As for VPK, the same would apply - if the vehicle required radios it would have them and certainly that was the case for my own which, in 1977 in NI was fitted with combat net radio as were the other vehicles in the chain of command which were required to be on the net. 

Regarding aerials: the ones on the front wing with aerial tuning units (ATUs: Larkspur TUAAM: Clansman) were generally VHF and those on the "candlesticks" HF.  Most units used VHF for command with HF as a back-up for some command appointments (generally for use as a rear-link radio as it had greater range), while RMP traffic units, for example, ran an HF command net as their requirement was to communicate over a larger area.  So, a typical Land Rover might have one or two VHF aerials on the wings (forward and rear link) with a single Aerial on a candlestick (HF rearlink).  Royal Signals vehicles with a wider communications remit might have four aerials.  Of course, as with everything to do with the military, there would be exceptions: the "establishment" was one thing, real life another - particularly given that breakdowns and failures of both vehicles and radios would result in apparently odd combinations (remember that photo of Bluebelle's with a Centurion ARV being used as a rebro station!). 

Whether the URS was so designed in order that it could be removed to convert the vehicle into a GS, or whether it was in order that it could be removed to reduce weight for helicopter lift, I don't know, but I suspect the latter as it never found its way into other SWB Land Rovers which might also benefit from easily-removed radio fittings to free up space (not so necessary for LWB Land Rovers, of course).  I'm not convinced that the Army had any particular plan to employ FFRs to GS as a matter of course anyway, as the whole point of them was to provide radios and transport for the commanders and others who required them.  

I know nothing about manpack combat net radios being fitted to GS vehicles as, in my time in the army, I never came across them, nor heard of them until finding this forum, in fact.

Winterisation was applied to all vehicles which were required to be so modified according to the unit establishment, whether they were FFR or GS Land Rovers, 4-tonners or whatever.  These included vehicles in units with a NATO flank role - the ACE Mobile Force (Land) AMF(L) army units, RM commandos and RAF units supporting the support helicopter and the Harrier forces.  The vast majority were, therefore, righthand drive and most were to be seen on Salisbury Plain as the main AMF(L) units were based at Bulford.

 

I ought to add that, of course, it was standard practice to remove both radios and ATUs (and other G1098 items) from vehicles when in camp or when no radio net was set up (not on exercise, training or operations) - hence the frequency of photos of FFR vehicles without them.  This was done for security and to prevent their being swiped - always a problem in barracks, particularly for lodger units, as I frequently found to my cost.  When my Land Rovers were out of use I usually had to remove wipers, rubies and bulbs or else the R Signals major unit with whom we shared a barracks would nick them - particularly off the trailers which, of course, saw much less activity than the Land Rovers!

Edited April 7, 2022 by 10FM68

[ruxy]

Without buying a load of Clansman User Instructions.

Most of the URS info. available was added to the last Truck Utility , 1/2 ton , 4x4  Rover S3 User Instructions .  This was a new Section added at the back of the book (I think this is only April 1979 Edn.).

It starts  332.  on  page 145

Fitting for Radio Stations  24 volt models.

These vehicles are fitted with the following equipment for unitary radio installation.  The equipment is designed for the operation of a radio station in the vehicle or in an 'outside' ground role. The kit comprises  etc. etc. etc.

-------------------------------------

Assuming a vertical helicopter lift was available -  for  'outside' ground role , that would make life easier, if not the batteries would have to be removed and it would be a 4 man struggle..  The  2 or 4 qty  UK6TN  tank starting NATO batteries could of course be re-charged from the LWT (parked alongside) using the leads , in the early days a Onan charging set was used,  in later years a Kubota powered Hopkins Genny was apparently used. 

-------------------

It's hard to say how many are restored to full URS spec.    I would guestimate  Clansman with typical sets  -  12 to 20 qty. at most.  Far fewer with operational radio by a HAM.      Larkspur  -  I doubt if a handful and I possibly no operational sets..

 

[Egg Bango]

You guys certainly know your stuff. It would be great to fit out my LR with the right radios, but it would limit options on general use, and sounds like it would be a hunt and a lot of expense to source a full URS setup. The half-ton trailer though sounds like an interesting add-on option worth investigating, though shame it wouldn’t be correct to be a pack Howitzer deact (assuming I could find one) as that would be  a bit if an experience.

[fv1609]

If you found a URS you could always mount it in the trailer.