Ferret brakes

[tankdiver]

Ferret brake are poor at any time.

As an ex mechanic I have worked on HGV PLANT and cars

 

I have had several ferrets and done the brakes on all of them but this one is really playing me up. The brakes had sticking wheel cylinders on one side the other side the wheel was not working at all, so an easy solution get the cylinders off and free the piston .

 

This done, then applied the brake to check brake balance and the two brackets that hold the shaft that the foot pedal move on just broke and the pedal went straight to the floor. More work I fabricated a couple as no one seemed to have any due to the metal fatigue 8 hr later a couple of stronger steel ones fitted .Never had this problem before

 

Next poor hand brake first adjust all wheels, then adjust cables. I disconnected all the cables and adjusted each one and then tried to finely balance them all . This is not as easy on this Ferret as after hours of checking the balance I can get one rear fully working ,fronts just touching and the other rear considering operating .All the cylinders and linkage is ok has any other members had a problem with the hand brake not balancing

Laurence

[fv1609]

Laurence just a thought are your brake shoe adjusters all ok? The mechanism is the same for Pigs & there were problems with both the phosphor bronze & steel types due to fracturing of the sleeve wall on the adjuster inner wheel or seizing on apply the brakes. There were a couple of urgent (blue) EMERs issued in 1982-3 about this, I don't know if there was an issue flagged up on Ferrets as well.

[tankdiver]

Brake adjusters are all working and lock up the brakes .I fully adjusted the brakes and centalised them by hitting the brum with a copper hammer . On other 50s vehicles they used a brake balancing bar but this is an army vehicle ////

[tankdiver]

I have pulled the vehicle into the workshop and will do a full inspection of all the brakes and fit new seals and pipes at the same time. It was supposed to have been done by the previous owner .

[Richard Farrant]

Brake adjusters are all working and lock up the brakes .I fully adjusted the brakes and centalised them by hitting the brum with a copper hammer . On other 50s vehicles they used a brake balancing bar but this is an army vehicle ////

 

Ferret brake shoes centralise themselves they sit in a holder and can pivot on a roller as well as float backwards and forwards a little. Not a commonly used set up but works well. No need to hit the drum.

[tankdiver]

thanks for the reply Richard

I find that a hit with the copper hammer helps the initial freeing of the brake binding on the drum

So far I have replaced all the cylinder rubbers , lubricated all the handbrake cables ,freed a sticking actuator in the drum , sorted out a week spring on the floor for the foot pedal and replaced the pedal bars on the floor holding the pedal.

 

I am about to start the master cylinder and while I am on the brakes I will replace all the flexible hoses and metal pipes.

 

With the pipes for those that have not done them they can be done with the engine and gear box in place.

This is done by lifting the securing tabs on all the pipes undoing the brake nuts, removing the angled joint that the flexible pipe is secured to on the rear. This is done with a pair of stilsons on the round nut then push the angled pipe through the Armour. Then pull the old pipe through the inspection hole with the new pipe attached ,remove the angle joint fit it to the new pipe that is also pulled through the inspection hole. I think I did all the pipes in a couple of hours much quicker than an engine removal

 

so I hope this will sort out any niggling problems

[albertamj]

We are currently refurbishing the brakes on 00CC78, the vehicle saw very little use over the past 30 years and even though it was stored indoors, the facility was not climate controlled. The old brake fluid was likely not silicone based and accumulated moisture within the system. Aside from the hub seals and wheel cylinders leaking, we've noticed that many of the components were frozen. They freed up with a little persuasion, but most everything that was supposed to move required attention. This included the brake adjusters that showed signs of some failed repairs - bronze brazing (Me thinks that this is may be what FV1609 was referring to).

 

Also of concern, was the way in which the white grease that was used within some of the components had harden and contributed to a lack of movement (even with the fingers that actuate the brake shoes). I guess my point is that even though you have repaired one part of the brake system, there may be other parts that will undermine your efforts. Best to do everything at the same time.

 

As Robin Craig noted on similar posts, renewing all of the cylinders with stainless is pricey but worth the money considering the amount of effort required to fully dismantle and clean each brake.

 

One more comment: 6 planetary gears with 24 needle bearings each lurking behind each hub - ugh!

 

[tankdiver]

Thanks for the reply.

The white grease was probably a rubberized grease used on the brakes, we used them on brakes in the 60/70s.

It was good stuff and lubricated the cylinders .I think I am making some progress this weak spring allowed the brake to be slightly applied and when the handbrake was adjusted it was allowing it to travel to far.

Amazing the cylinders are in excellent condition. The pistons were stiff at first but brake fluid lubrication and moving them back in the cylinder with a G clamp freed them and although the rubbers were not scored I replaced them

 

This Ferret does not have the inspection as all of my 6 other ferrets 4 of which I changed the pipes with the engine in .

A bit of an annoying blow.The other one I am restoring was easy to replace the pipes through this inspection hole .

 

There was a good bit of equipment I was given by my wife if it would come in handy and it was a small brush for cleaning ovens like a toothbrush I found it fantastic for lubricating all the metal [not hydraulic cylinder] actuators and rubbing points it got into places better than putting copper on the end of a screwdriver.Now it is part of my tool kit.

[ferretfixer]

A tip that might be of use to some of Us perhaps? It might be obvious to some, but there will be many who don't stop to think about this mundane household item. When it has finished it's useful life in the bathroom!.....

 

I never throw away my old toothbrushes. I have a tin of them in my workshop, & they are almost a daily use tool!

VERY useful for cleaning a myriad of things! & removing soft crud from surfaces & cracks Etc.

 

I also keep one standing upright, in a Large Ex Army tin of XG279 GP Grease! Handy for the application of aforementioned lubricant!

 

Top tip No:2. DONT use any of these brushes to clean your teeth after use in the workshop!.........

[albertamj]

Great photos Tankdriver,

 

I used a medical grade rubbing alcohol to clean out the brake lines prior to disassembly. I pumped it through the master cylinder and bled out each line until the alcohol started coming through. Once the brakes were disassembled, I blew out the lines again with an air hose to remove the remaining alcohol. I too would have liked to have replaced all of the steel brake lines but it is what it is ...

 

I too found the wheel cylinders to be in good shape - just the master that was pitted. At least parts are easy to come by and relatively cheap (outside of sleeving the master cylinder that is).

 

The two rear brakes are finished, now, on to the front (what a job!). Not your typical weekend project.

 

The things we do for our small green machines ...

[tankdiver]

A tip that might be of use to some of Us perhaps? It might be obvious to some, but there will be many who don't stop to think about this mundane household item. When it has finished it's useful life in the bathroom!.....

 

I never throw away my old toothbrushes. I have a tin of them in my workshop, & they are almost a daily use tool!

VERY useful for cleaning a myriad of things! & removing soft crud from surfaces & cracks Etc.

 

I also keep one standing upright, in a Large Ex Army tin of XG279 GP Grease! Handy for the application of aforementioned lubricant!

 

Top tip No:2. DONT use any of these brushes to clean your teeth after use in the workshop!.........

 

I have worked on and taught vehicles for over 50 years and have just found a toothbrush excellent for small parts greasing used them for cleaning its a cheap great tool

Laurence

[tankdiver]

Yes Its a pain I am at present dealing with the worst bleed of brakes that I have ever done the last one was in 1970 on a ford 100E that took a whole week to sort out . Fortunate for the customer we did not charge all the time we left the vehicle for another week and returned to it with the intention of going through the procedure again and found the system had bled out the air by itself. At present I canl not get fluid to the cylinders and I am at present trying several methods to achieve this .tomorrow is another day.

 

Laurence

[fv1609]

I have worked on and taught vehicles for over 50 years and have just found a toothbrush excellent for small parts greasing used them for cleaning its a cheap great tool

Laurence

 

Indeed & this type of interspace brush is particularly useful for small awkward recesses & also for dislodging spider's nests in the top corners of window panes.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CTS-Super-Slim-Interspace-Brush-/301644990391?hash=item463b7147b7:g:1qkAAOSwKtVWvcsK

[tankdiver]

more photos

When I started to do the master cylinder I undid the dust cover and it was full of rusty water .

My initial thought was it will need a resleave but was amazed that the cylinder was great and rubbers would be OK .

 

I always lubricate with rubberized grease or Brake fluid and will always flush the system with brake fluid as any other fluid will make the rubbers to rot and fail , even in the past when lockheed and girling fluid mixed would cause the seals to fail. Brake fluids are much better today and usually mix .

 

I have now come to the end of my old stock of rubberized grease and have not seen any in the motor factor any one use this type of grease today?

 

With the bleeding of the brakes I should have done one side at a time and bled as I went on, instead of allowing so much air into the system.

 

My helper my daughter had to go home but we will give it another try tomorrow. I will try some other method of bleeding to see if the fluid starts to move.

 

So far I rechecked the master cylinders airbleed ,main seals and secondary seals by removing the M/C, then bled the master cylinder by undoing the pipe as well as various bleeding techniques I have done over the years.

 

To think I have used this vehicle for 20 miles with these brakes that were supposed to have been done.

 

Ferrets are never boring.

Laurence

[fv1609]

I have now come to the end of my old stock of rubberized grease and have not seen any in the motor factor any one use this type of grease today?

 

Yes Laurence http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15g-Castrol-Red-Rubber-Grease-Brake-Caliper-Fluid-Mini-Tin-BUY-2-GET-5-OFF-NOW-/131714656463?hash=item1eaace28cf:g:WqsAAOxyu~lSTrTO

[tankdiver]

I have pulled the vehicle into the workshop and will do a full inspection of all the brakes and fit new seals and pipes at the same time. It was supposed to have been done by the previous owner .

 

 

I think this ferret is winning the battle at present but it will not win the war

 

After doing all the cylinders flexible brake pipes and master cylinder rubbers It would not bleed .

Today I have rechecked all the pipes and found that the front flexible female nut was slightly to long, causing it to tighten on the tub rather than the pipe connection.

I only found this out by doing things different with the bleeding after several attempts with normal bleeding.

As the fluid would not come down the pipes due to these pipes causing an air leak, I forced fluid into the metal pipes with a small plastic bottle ,as I pushed the fluid into the pipes I noticed fluid escaping on one of the front pipes.Looking at it very closely it was tightened against the tub as the female nut was a little to long. After removing 1/16" off the nut it allowed enough clearance to grip onto the brake flange/ male pipe end

Once this air leak was sorted fluid was now able to be bled.

Thinking I am making progress I noticed a small leak around the M/C and I checked pipes and copper washers but it was coming from the secondary seal on the M/C ,Well re- sleeve the M/C is now required.

 

Pity it looked really good when I re-rubbered them

[tankdiver]

Yes Laurence http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15g-Castrol-Red-Rubber-Grease-Brake-Caliper-Fluid-Mini-Tin-BUY-2-GET-5-OFF-NOW-/131714656463?hash=item1eaace28cf:g:WqsAAOxyu~lSTrTO

 

 

Thanks Clive I will get some .

I found a new tool After trying bleeding the brakes with no fluid coming out I pushed fluid throgh the rear pipe with a plastic bottle filled with brake fluid and found the air leakon the front flexible hose.The problem was the female pipe was tightening onto the tub instead of the pipe flange as the nut was just to long by 1/16" .This I ground off and some progress was made but it is still being a to pain to get a good pedal.

 

More examination shows the master cylinder has a small leak off the secondary seal so I will replace

 

one step forward /////

Laurence

[Peakrec]

Thanks Clive I will get some .

I found a new tool After trying bleeding the brakes with no fluid coming out I pushed fluid throgh the rear pipe with a plastic bottle filled with brake fluid and found the air leakon the front flexible hose.The problem was the female pipe was tightening onto the tub instead of the pipe flange as the nut was just to long by 1/16" .This I ground off and some progress was made but it is still being a to pain to get a good pedal.

 

More examination shows the master cylinder has a small leak off the secondary seal so I will replace

 

one step forward /////

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Laurence

I have a Humber 1 ton, all brakes to do, then same on a ferret, so be 6 month project !

[albertamj]

Lots of great pictures relating to the Ferret brake system. As we were also removing the hub and replacing the seal, we cam across a couple minor anomalies:

 

On the left front hub, the pictured 'star shaped' retainer was found to be installed backwards resulting in a sheared bolt and distortion to the retainer arms. Nylon lock nuts were also used instead of the castle nuts and cotter pins.

 

Interestingly enough, we found a stud or dowel sheared off on the right front hub. Lucky for us the piece left inside the housing came out with just a small magnet. We fabricated a new one from 7/16 hardened steel.

[sexton]

We use a pressure bleeder on the m/c which can be done easily by drilling and tapping the extension cap for a 1/8" NPT fitting. If you get low or no flow to a wheel cylinder with 10 psi on the m/c, it's likely the bore of the hose at the wheel has collapsed, preventing flow. We have had to replace a few hoses due to this on old hoses.

 

Malcolm