w896andy Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 (edited) A number of years ago I was lucky enough to come across an Autocar U8144 by chance, I had no intention of buying anything like it but, I got carried away and well before I knew it, it was on the back of a lorry heading for home…. As I’m been busy with a number of things including building my house for the last few years I’ve not had time to touch it, now however the time has come. I was also prodded into action by firstly a friend of mine, Paul rebuilding his Jeep in my barn who has kindly offered to help me and secondly a chance conversation over a beer on Jim Clark’s stand at W&P this year with somebody very close to this forum (you know who you are) who it seems likes Autocar’s a lot and made it clear that I needed to get on and get it running or he would never speak to me again. So to you two gentleman, this is for you and it’s all your fault !!!!!! Its reasonably intact, was stripped down to its chassis with all of the running gear, brakes etc. including the original petrol engine in place and working. All of the cab frame, panels, radiator, grille, interior, etc. came with it in bits. It’s just missing the large open topped equipment box which sits behind the cab, the stowage box on the side underneath, the headlamps and fifth wheel coupling all of which I will no-doubt have to get made as I’m not likely to be able to find them anywhere. The truck seems to have a bit of a story behind it, it appears to have started life as a U8144 with a box body on the back, from the pictures I’ve seen these were very large, very high and very long, in fact too high to fit into any of my barns. It seems at some stage it has had the rear chassis cut back to convert it into a Pontoon tractor unit, which of the ones built were the most numerous. The box truck didn’t have a winch on the front but the Pontoon tractor did. A stroke of luck happened during one of those chance conversations as somebody else had a winch and all the bits but wanted a plain non-winch front end for his. Parts duly swapped I can now have it looking correct. The original petrol engine runs but had to come out as I wanted to grit blast and re-paint the chassis properly so a lot of soul searching took place regards putting it back in or converting it to diesel. It was a case of 2-3mpg with the petrol or about 10-ish and better reliability with a diesel. After a conversation and a lot of help with the expert on these things Mike Gillman (tootallmike) who does this type of thing for a living it’s been agreed that he is going to source a Cummins 6BT diesel, mate it to the original gearbox and fabricate the engine mountings to match the originals on the truck. That way I can have a truck I can use, keep the petrol engine in the shed and if ever in the future somebody wants to put it back to original it can all be swapped back. The work so far is really pictured below, the idea was to get the chassis painted before the winter arrives and get it into my workshop on stands which I have completed today. I can now work on the chassis, suspension (the rear springs need rebuilding), brakes etc. and then await the engine in the new year, then start the cab rebuild and get the missing bits made before fitting it all together and painting it all again with the rest of the 5 gallons of olive drab I’ve just purchased from Jim at Allied Forces. It all sounds simple, which I know it won’t be but you have to enter into these things full of positive optimism !!! If anybody has any leads on the missing bits I need including the Dayton or Austin fifth wheel coupling and a set of 12.00 x 20 bar grips plus a supplier who can re-build leaf springs please let me know, of course as always any other comments constructive or otherwise always welcome. Edited October 19, 2016 by w896andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I like that steering wheel! Try LWD Parts - he has some good value N.O.S. big wheels. See under U.S. Heavy. Check diameter. Interesting you should mention AUSTIN 5th wheel. Has your chassis been drilled on the top rail for the coupling, maybe 5 holes each side centred about 2" forward of the rear axle centreline? Can you provide any info on the AUSTIN coupling other than the photo in the Tankograd book? Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Look forward to following this restoration, I have a bit of a soft spot for these fifth wheel tractor units. Regarding rebuilding leaf springs give Jones Spring Eng Ltd a try @ Darlaston WS10 8BE Tel 0121 568 7575, I've found them to be very good with a quick turn round and a reasonably priced, no connection just satisfied customer. Regards Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughman Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 We have used Owen Springs at Rotherham a number of times. They do supply New or refurbished/ Rebuilt springs. http://www.owensprings.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted September 10, 2014 Author Share Posted September 10, 2014 Guys, thanks for your replies. Tony, I’ll follow up on the steering wheel, as you can see mines a bit too far gone !!. Regarding the fifth wheel coupling my chassis has not been drilled as it was a box van so I will be able to mount any fifth wheel and drill holes where I need to, but of course I’d prefer an original one if I can find one. Apart from the pictures in the Tankograd book the only information I’ve been able to find is that it appears the two types were fitted as the supply was available so either could have been put on but Drayton seems to be the one I’ve seen the most of. The difference in both of them from a standard fifth wheel seems to be that they both tip side to side as well as the usual front to back, I assume because of the off road potential of the truck and the need for it to move both ways. From a practical point of view because I won’t be using it off road I could fit a standard modern fifth wheel if I had no other options. , The pin size on the trailer is standard on them all right up to modern times so they should all be interchangeable. The parts diagram of the coupling in the Tankograd book is taken from the U7144 manual and seems to be a Drayton, I have bits of the U8144 parts book which I have copied below, it shows the fifth wheel from a different angle than Tankograd but also seems to be a Drayton looking at the base plate. What’s your knowledge on the subject ? I’ve also got the semi-trailer, the picture below shows it as found in a wood yard and is complete with dolly, its American (you can’t see the back wheels but they are American style) and 1940’s, possibly civilian rather than pure military and it’s been a bit messed about with over the years but I can un-do that and the chassis is solid with no major work needing doing Pete/Bryan Thanks for the leads on a spring rebuild that’s very helpful, I’ll give them a call to discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 ...What’s your knowledge on the subject ?…. Confusion! The Austin coupling in Tankograd is on my U-7144T. The coupling is to put it mildly a bit wierd, in that not only does it pivot laterally and longitudinally (like Dayton), but the cross-pivot pin is cranked - which means it can swing forward and back rising as it does so. This allows the coupling to rock forward and back to cushion movement between tractor and trailer. Quite why I have no idea - it seems to me it would make any trailer behave as if it had a load of liquid in an un-baffled tank, sloshing forward and back, sick-making! The Austin coupling was attached by long bolts and clamp plates around chassis rails. The strange thing is that when I took it off to replace with a Dayton (stay with me here - as I need to lock out the sideways pivoting which can be done on the Dayton because the trailer has a built-in pivoting 5th wheel plate - doesn't life get complicated!), I found that the chassis had never been drilled for a Dayton plate. The truck was reconditioned in Autocar's Ardmore plant in 1953, so I don't know if the Austin plate was a wartime pattern or a post-war type. And I've not seen another one. But it seems that - unless a new chassis was fitted - there must have been a wartime coupling with similar fastening method. Couplings were supplied and fitted to the tractors at the trailer factory, not at the tractor factory. I have only seen Dayton pattern in any wartime pictures or manuals. If you are not in a hurry I can try a Euro contact for a Dayton-type plate for you - it will be off an M series but other than not having DAYTON lettering they are identical, with the same characteristic cast baseplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWade Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 If you have a problem locating a fifth wheel over here try this chap John Ferrie, at vintage military Vehicles, he managed to supply me with a fifth wheel for my GMC tractor unit, it was not a dayton wheel but looked the same, and it was in very good order. He is in Colarado. Johmferrie@vintagemilitaryvehicles.com Good luck with the restoration. Howard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Confusion!The Austin coupling was attached by long bolts and clamp plates around chassis rails. Ah, I was getting a bit confused until this point! So, the chassis was shortened after removal of the original body, and a 5th-wheel clamped to the chassis rather than drilling the chassis to bolt one on, yes? Nice trailer! trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooTallMike Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Confusion! The Austin coupling in Tankograd is on my U-7144T. The coupling is to put it mildly a bit wierd, in that not only does it pivot laterally and longitudinally (like Dayton), but the cross-pivot pin is cranked - which means it can swing forward and back rising as it does so. This allows the coupling to rock forward and back to cushion movement between tractor and trailer. Quite why I have no idea - it seems to me it would make any trailer behave as if it had a load of liquid in an un-baffled tank, sloshing forward and back, sick-making! The Austin coupling was attached by long bolts and clamp plates around chassis rails. The strange thing is that when I took it off to replace with a Dayton (stay with me here - as I need to lock out the sideways pivoting which can be done on the Dayton because the trailer has a built-in pivoting 5th wheel plate - doesn't life get complicated!), I found that the chassis had never been drilled for a Dayton plate. The truck was reconditioned in Autocar's Ardmore plant in 1953, so I don't know if the Austin plate was a wartime pattern or a post-war type. And I've not seen another one. But it seems that - unless a new chassis was fitted - there must have been a wartime coupling with similar fastening method. Couplings were supplied and fitted to the tractors at the trailer factory, not at the tractor factory. I have only seen Dayton pattern in any wartime pictures or manuals. If you are not in a hurry I can try a Euro contact for a Dayton-type plate for you - it will be off an M series but other than not having DAYTON lettering they are identical, with the same characteristic cast baseplate. Just to add to what Tony has said above - Tony spent several years looking for a genuine Dayton plate and it seems there are very few out there. If you can get an M-series one that looks right you'd probably be best off going down that route. Unfortunately having appeared in the Tankograd book, the Austin coupling has now edged its way into Autocar folklore despite almost certainly not being wartime, and quite possibly in fact being an early restorer's fitment. - MG Edited September 11, 2014 by TooTallMike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 Fantastic and great see one's finger has been pulled out:D The Autocar would be the only vehicle to pull me out of mv 'retirement' IF I COULD FIND ONE :shocked::cry::kiss: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 There are a couple of new 12.00x20 bar grips on Milweb currently, check they are the correct ply rating. http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=74207&cat=50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Trevor Sorry I know I didn’t explain it well. It looks like the chassis was shortened with a view to making it into a tractor unit but it never progressed from there so it never had the fifth wheel or the holes fitted. The trucks with the box bodies (picture below) were made the same as the tractor unit (apart from the winch) and even had a cross member in the same place as the tractor unit but the chassis on the box body was extended further back so cutting it short was an easy 10 minute job with no-doubt a big angle grinder. Thats why I'm also missing the open box behind the cab which is used on the tractor which I also need to find/get made. Edited September 11, 2014 by w896andy forgot information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted September 11, 2014 Author Share Posted September 11, 2014 Thanks for the info on the fifth wheels, that’s expanded my knowledge by about 800% on the subject now and all makes sense. Now if anybody can find the open box behind the cab and the tool box on the chassis between the wheels you guys will have solved all of my problems !!!!! The other thing I would like to know is can you still get the wheel studs/nuts, as those of you in the know will be aware there is a stud (which looks to be bolted to the hub), a threaded nut for the inner wheel and a nut for the outer wheel. A number of mine are wasted where the rust has got to them so will need replacing, I’ve been told I could get modern replacements as it’s a fairly common fixing ? Tony. I’ve dropped you an email re your euro contact for one. Jack. Good to see you are paying attention, please feel free to come out of retirement and come and have a look in the flesh, I’m only the other side of Glastonbury from you (an offer open to anyone). I’ll even make the tea and let you touch it as long as you don’t try and take it home in your pocket !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 I’ve done a bit more to the Autocar. I took the back hubs off to see what it looked like and make some space to remove the back springs later. They came apart very nicely, the brake linings were like new as are the bearings so I’ve stripped them right down for a paint and put back together. I also painted the cab frame and put it on the chassis for a trial fit. As you will see from the photo it makes an already ugly truck very ugly and very naked ! I have trail fitted some of the panels which the previous owners had made, unfortunately the large side panels have not been made to the right profile for the bonnet and the front grille meaning I’m going to have to find somebody with some panel bending skills to re-profile them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Andy - please check your PMs and confirm collection is ok! Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MICHAEL01 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Hi Andy Project has certainly gone forward since l last saw it! l like the paint colour, who's is it your using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Tony Replied to you, thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Michael Its US Light Olive from Jim Clark at Allied Forces. It sprays nicely too. He sells it by the 5 litre and keeps it in stock. I've got to go back to him in the next couple of days, I've just bought a GMC which needs spraying as well !!!!! :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted May 17, 2016 Author Share Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) My Autocar has taken a bit of forward movement, I picked up its diesel engine today from Mike Gillman’s (TooTallMike) workshop. He has fitted a Cummins 6BT Turbo Diesel to the original gearbox and has made up a set of engine mountings so it fits on the original chassis mounting points plus made up a fan boss to extend the Cummins fan blade so It sits closer to the radiator (the Cummins engine is shorter than the Hercules petrol). This means I should be able to drop it back into the chassis, connect up the prop to the gearbox, generally plumb the engine in and it should fit under the cab floor etc. without too much cutting about of the truck itself. Edited May 17, 2016 by w896andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Yesterday I managed to get the Cummins 6BT diesel engine into my Autocar.. Mike Gillman sourced the engine, mated the engine to the original gearbox and made mountings so that it fitted the original mounting points so in theory it was a straight forward job. What we didn’t know was if anything was going to get in the way when it was fitted and the cab frame mounted. There are a number of issues but all have a fix so far, the heart stopping moment was when I found that the Air Compressor on the Cummins fouled the Clutch/Brake Pedal Bracket. A bit of head scratching later and I unbolted the pedal bracket and moved it backward a few inches as it bolts directly to the chassis rail, I’ll re-drill the holes and it solves the issue. If it had fouled the steering box which is on the same side and further forward of the pedal bracket it would have been a major issue. The only other major thing that gets in the way is the engine cover in the cab which needs to be widened on the drivers side to miss the inlet manifold and injector pipes and relocating some of the underfloor support rails a little, other than that it all fits nicely with plenty of space for the turbo, starter, alternator, etc. The cooling fan has an extended boss made by Mike so it clears the cab frame (the Cummins is shorter than the original Hercules) and there is plenty of room to mount either the original radiator or a modern one. Now it’s just a case of plumbing it all in and making any fittings needed and then taking it all out to paint it !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Well that looks all nice and tidy, and a good bit of progress trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Looks about the same extra needed on LHS as a Scania 8 litre, Andy :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 A bit of an update on my Autocar U8144. I’ve fitted most of the cab flooring, the driver’s side needing ‘adjusting’ along with the cab floor frame around the engine as the Cummins 6BT is a little wider on this side than the original petrol engine, the passenger side is unaltered. I just need to get the engine cover widened and the throttle pedal relocated and it will be done. I’ve also shortened the clutch and brake rods a little as I had to move the pedal box back (only an inch as it turned out) to miss the air compressor on the Cummins and Mike Gillman modified the thrust bearing carrier a little so there was the right clearance between the modern clutch cover on the Cummins and the original thrust bearing on the Autocar gearbox. Using the original gearbox has meant that with a fabricated front mounting bracket onto the bell housing the original handbrake/transfer box/4wd lever mounting bracket and gear lever are all unaltered, these have been freed off and remounted along with the front winch PTO which sticks out under the gearbox. Next jobs include getting the radiator and rear springs rebuilt and starting to rebuild the rest of the cab, most of the panels are new and have been trial fitted so that shouldn’t take too long and then of course sort an exhaust, make a wiring loom and then perhaps I can run the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 Its been a while since I updated this blog so I thought it was about time. Not much has happened on the truck itself other than cleaning and painting small parts but trailer wise things have taken a few steps forward. I had a 25’ single axle cargo trailer of the correct era complete with a US army dolly, and then a while later bought a 25’ swan neck low loading trailer also with a dolly which had been sat on a farm. The low loader is not military but has a nice low bed, dual brakes and a fifth wheel so I can use it behind the Autocar or my large 4wd tractor, it will take about 10 tons safely so I could carry both the Jeep on the swan neck with my M3 Scout car on the main body with weight to spare. Needless to say the trailer needed more work than I first saw and is being stripped down to the chassis before a repaint, a new bed, reinforced side frame, the king pin plate has been removed and straightened and various other repair items plus eight heavy duty new commercial lorry tyres which will take the weight safely. So the two dollies are both now finished and the low loader is part way there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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