Could I legally pull a 20ft military living trailer behind an Austin k9?

[Billruston]

Would it be legal?

 

Bill.

[Brooky]

yes providing the trailer was braked

 

 

[Ian L]

yes providing the trailer was braked.

 

 

 

And the trailer must be pre 1960 & used unloaded if the vehicle is going to be used Tax / MOT exempt.

[Richard Farrant]

yes providing the trailer was braked

 

 

 

 

Bill,

If this is one of the postwar trailers that are often seen used as living vans, then they are air braked so no good behind a K9, in fact I think you will find they will be too heavy for it.

K9 brakes are straight hydraulics so not even a vacuum servo option.

[N.O.S.]

And the trailer must be pre 1960 & used unloaded if the vehicle is going to be used Tax / MOT exempt.

 

If a post-1960 trailer was MOTd, could it not be pulled by the pre-1960 truck? Assuming braking if necessary was sorted of course. And used unladen (use governed by pulling vehicle).

 

I don't see why it couldn't, but am not yet convinced it can :-D

[Ian L]

If a post-1960 trailer was MOTd, could it not be pulled by the pre-1960 truck? Assuming braking if necessary was sorted of course. And used unladen (use governed by pulling vehicle).

 

I don't see why it couldn't, but am not yet convinced it can :-D

 

No if you want to use the vehicle untaxed, Form V112G clause 30 which is the MOT exemption form we have to sign each year.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Ian L
Changed wording of Tax to MOT

[N.O.S.]

Clause 30 merely states that a pre-1960 motor vehicle is one of the classes of vehicle exempted from plating and testing - so long as it is used unladen, as is a pre-1960 trailer - again so long as it is used unladen.

 

It is reasonable therefore to assume that a post 1960 trailer (above a certain size - I'm not sure what the size cut-off is here?) would need to be plated and tested - whether used laden or unladen. I believe this is the case.

 

So - if towing a pre-1960 unladen trailer with a pre-1960 motor vehicle is permitted (as I believe it is), why can't you tow a post 1960 unladen trailer with the same vehicle so long as the trailer itself is tested?

 

It's a difficult one to find an answer to, but very relevant to the original question! :nut:

[utt61]

V112G is for exemption from HGV testing not exemption from tax.

 

The vehicle and trailer must be unladen if using the pre-1960 exemption from testing provision.

 

An HGV taxed as Historic can be used laden and can draw a laden trailer provided that it is tested and is not being used commercially.

[Jack]

We never had a clear answer for these sorts of questions in 8 years - they are a nightmare :embarrassed:

[utt61]

Clause 30 merely states that a pre-1960 motor vehicle is one of the classes of vehicle exempted from plating and testing - so long as it is used unladen, as is a pre-1960 trailer - again so long as it is used unladen.

 

It is reasonable therefore to assume that a post 1960 trailer (above a certain size - I'm not sure what the size cut-off is here?) would need to be plated and tested - whether used laden or unladen. I believe this is the case.

 

So - if towing a pre-1960 unladen trailer with a pre-1960 motor vehicle is permitted (as I believe it is), why can't you tow a post 1960 unladen trailer with the same vehicle so long as the trailer itself is tested?

 

It's a difficult one to find an answer to, but very relevant to the original question! :nut:

 

The note on the V112G is stating that the following can be exempted:-

 

a) a pre-1960 vehicle used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer, and

 

b) a pre-1960 trailer used unladen

 

The two are seperate items. There is no reason why a pre-1960 vehicle cannot tow an unladen post-1960 trailer but in this case the trailer must be plated and tested.

 

There is no reason why a plated and tested post-1960 vehicle cannot tow an unladen pre-1960 trailer without the need for the trailer to be plated and tested. In this case the towing vehicle need not be unladen (since it is plated and tested) but the trailer must be unladen to qualify for the exemption from plating and testing.

[Ian L]

V112G is for exemption from HGV testing not exemption from tax.

 

The vehicle and trailer must be unladen if using the pre-1960 exemption from testing provision.

 

An HGV taxed as Historic can be used laden and can draw a laden trailer provided that it is tested and is not being used commercially.

 

Slight confusion there as I meant MOT not tax but I think it goes back to Bill's original question about towing a living van ? yes he can if he gets the tow vehicle MOT tested and pays the road tax if the caravan is loaded which it will be if used for sleeping in. Of course it may only become a major problem for most of us if our vehicle is involved in a major RTA, then questions will be asked... in court.

[utt61]

It can still be taxed as Historic, but, yes, it must be tested if the trailer is legally laden.

[Ian L]

It can still be taxed as Historic, but, yes, it must be tested if the trailer is legally laden.

 

We come to the same conclusion then ? but I didn't realise the road tax was still free (historic) once used for goods ?

[utt61]

As far as I know you can use an Historic tax class vehicle laden but not commercially.

 

Yes, we are in agreement!

 

The question of whether or not a living van counts as unladen or not is another whole can of worms which we really don't want to open, however it is very difficult indeed to see any way in which it could be considered to fall into the legal definition of unladen.

[Brooky]

As far as I know you can use an Historic tax class vehicle laden but not commercially.

 

Yes, we are in agreement!

 

The question of whether or not a living van counts as unladen or not is another whole can of worms which we really don't want to open, however it is very difficult indeed to see any way in which it could be considered to fall into the legal definition of unladen.

 

 

If the vehicle is pre 1960 then yes it will have to be tested as the exemption only covers vehicles used unladen, if built between 1960 and 1974 then it would have to be tested anyway but Historic tax class can still be applied. Post 1974 it will have to be tested and taxed private heavy goods (if over 3500kgs)

A living van not exceeding 3500kgs is also exempt from testing and plating

[N.O.S.]

.....There is no reason why a pre-1960 vehicle cannot tow an unladen post-1960 trailer but in this case the trailer must be plated and tested.

 

There is no reason why a plated and tested post-1960 vehicle cannot tow an unladen pre-1960 trailer without the need for the trailer to be plated and tested. In this case the towing vehicle need not be unladen (since it is plated and tested) but the trailer must be unladen to qualify for the exemption from plating and testing.

 

Yes, I reckon that must be the answer. Doubt the answer exists in any explicit (written) form so must be deduced from what is available.

 

Cheers.

[David Herbert]

Surely the term "laden" refers to a vehicle or trailer built or adapted for the carriage of goods. If the living van is properly converted rather than being an empty box body with a porta-potty and a camping table and chairs, then it is not suitable for the carriage of goods so can not be tested as such. Its gross weight will require it to have over run brakes up to 3.5T or powered brakes above that, as with any trailer, but if it can't carry goods surely it can not be laden or unladen.

 

David

[N.O.S.]

I've never closely followed the various discussions here in the past regarding living vans, but am now beginning to wish I had as I am contemplating whether I can adapt a van trailer for such a purpose. Although I don't recall the discussions here ever produced a definitive answer?

 

The other part of the original question I suppose is 'is there a maximum train weight (vehicle plus trailer) for the K9?'

 

Most period trailers seen behind preserved MVs tend to be as used in service - e.g. Ben Hur behind a GMC, Arrows behind a Bedford MK, Rogers behind a DT980. Whether they are braked or unbraked seems to depend on what their original spec. was.

 

But in this case (and to help answer the original question) what criteria do you use to decide the maximum size of trailer - be it braked or unbaked - that can be pulled by a particular vehicle?

[Richard Farrant]

The other part of the original question I suppose is 'is there a maximum train weight (vehicle plus trailer) for the K9?'

 

 

But in this case (and to help answer the original question) what criteria do you use to decide the maximum size of trailer - be it braked or unbaked - that can be pulled by a particular vehicle?

 

Hi Tony,

This was the point I was trying to make in my post early on. The official Data Book of WD GS "B" Vehicles shows the K9 as having a maximum trailed weight of 2 tons. The usual trailer when in service was the 1 ton Brockhouse / Sankey 2 wheeled trailer with overrun brakes. You would not want anything larger as it does not have servo assistance on a K9.

[scott9643]

........ You would not want anything larger as it does not have servo assistance on a K9.

The brakes on the K9 in standard form were probably up to the standard for the 1950s, but compared to modern vehicles they are awful and the stopping distance is very worrying -- you don't really need to be following anything close. We've had a number of near misses with ours and a few 'adrenalin' moments, so you really need to be wide awake. Hitch a trailer on and even with over run brakes, stopping needs to be planned well in advance. Personally I wouldn't even entertain putting anything bigger than the 1 ton Sankey behind. It saps all the power for one thing, we're forever changing gear, but once it's all wound up to a sensible road speed, the truck doesn't handle all that well either. Perhaps someone on here could tell us what is was like in service with a ton and a half of radio kit in the back and two Onan generators in the trailer -- must have been fun, but then convoys only travelled at 25mph in the 50's

[Pete Ashby]

I think as others have already said the breaking issue is key to the question in hand.

However, without wishing to divert the thread in any way reading the replies regarding trailers in general that may have been converted to living vans it has raised a question in my mind namely... when does a trailer stop being a trailer for carrying goods and when does it become a caravan.......is there a difference ?

 

Pete