Ex military trucks

[Great War truck]

I found these photos on the National Railway Museum website. Their copyright gives permission for the to be used here. Mostly Leylands, but also a Peerless, AEC and Karrier. Sorry that the quality is not that good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

 

 

[Locolines]

Some local trucks of yesteryear..

[Great War truck]

Here are some more from the same source. These are almost certainly not ex military but some are of a type which were impressed:.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Knox

 

 

Austin

 

 

Locomobile in the USA being fitted with rail wheels:

 

 

[antar]

VOSA would have had a field day...no load retension on any of them!

[John Comber]

Wonderful photos, thank you for sharing, any ideas what the tractor is ? That scene is great with an empty horse drawn cart head to head with the tractor, I would love to be taken back in time to whiteness the pub talk when it replaced the horse.

[Great War truck]

I think the tractor might be an Alldays and Onions, but as always I am happy to be corrected.

[Simonl]

Yes it is an Alldays and at least one still exists in the UK.

[Charawacky]

I was looking at an Alldays tractor last Sunday

The engine is quite small, half the space between Radiator and bulkhead is taken up by a water ballast tank!

The tractor in the picture looks nicely proportioned from the angle of the photo however the actual machine is really quite cumbersome and crude compared to the it's contemporaries.

 

All the images are lovely, I do like Leylands with disc wheels

 

My favourite picture is the three down at heel commercials

 

I guess the middle one is a Leyland X Type, others are wild guesses Caledonian and Star?

 

Can someone enlighten me please.

 

Tom

[Hoseman]

Here are some more from the same source. These are almost certainly not ex military but some are of a type which were impressed:.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Knox

 

 

Austin

 

 

Locomobile in the USA being fitted with rail wheels:

 

 

 

Great pics, thanks for sharing.

Love the last picture, reminds me of the sayimg "If in doubt, give it a clout!!"

Love the use of the 20lb precission instrument!!:wow:

[Tony B]

Post Great War the railways had to go internal combustion. Most of thier horses had been killed in France.

[Redherring]

My favourite picture is the three down at heel commercials

 

I guess the middle one is a Leyland X Type, others are wild guesses Caledonian and Star?

 

 

Best guesses

 

Left - a Ryknield - do any of this marque exist today?

 

Centre - this could be a Leyland X2 class, alternatively it could also be a W class. W were a similar but heavier model. Most likely built 1909 judging from the number plate B2180 (bit fuzzy and best guess at numbers). Also the wheels are very early composites.

 

Right - no idea, although the radiator is reminiscent of the Milnes Daimler.

 

Robert

[Redherring]

Here are some more from the same source. These are almost certainly not ex military but some are of a type which were impressed:.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo is a gem. It is a very rare photo of a Leyland T type c1909. It was a smaller/lighter development of the X type retaining some features, but with a new T class back axle. Note the early composite wheels and Y type radiator.

If anyone happens to have other photos of these units I would be most interested to see them. I am restoring a Leyland ST. Very similar to the above but not quite as early. The ST has electric steel wheels and larger 'curved' cowl. They were utilised in the early days of WW1 until replaced by the 'very modern' subsidy pattern lorries.

 

Robert

[Richard Peskett]

Regarding the 'RAF' type Leylands in Lancashire and Yorkshire railway ownership it is somewhat ironic that considerable numbers of these vehicles were part manufactured and assembled under contract at the L & Y workshops at Horwich and Newton Heath. Production figures included 5318 chassis frames, 2228 front axles and 1504 bodies. ( reference 'The Engineer' 1.8.1919). Unfortunately no Ryknields have surviuved, generally registered in the 'FA ... ' series at the factory in Burton upon Trent. A short spell of popularity in Belgium but a disastrous fire at the exhibition there in about 1909 put an end to that, finally going out of business in 1911.

Richard Peskett.

[Redherring]

Richard

 

I understand that many pre-subsidy lorries/vans went to the front early in the war. Do you happen to know whether information sources exist in this regard?

 

Thanks

 

Robert

[Charawacky]

Regarding the 'RAF' type Leylands in Lancashire and Yorkshire railway ownership it is somewhat ironic that considerable numbers of these vehicles were part manufactured and assembled under contract at the L & Y workshops at Horwich and Newton Heath. Production figures included 5318 chassis frames, 2228 front axles and 1504 bodies. ( reference 'The Engineer' 1.8.1919). Unfortunately no Ryknields have surviuved, generally registered in the 'FA ... ' series at the factory in Burton upon Trent. A short spell of popularity in Belgium but a disastrous fire at the exhibition there in about 1909 put an end to that, finally going out of business in 1911.

Richard Peskett.

 

Richard,

 

Having spent the last 20 years or so working every day in the Loco works at Horwich it is a revelation to me that RAF Leylands were built here!

I will attempt to find out more.

 

Thank you for the information.

 

Tom

[ploughman]

Is it actually shown at Horwich works?

Appears to be a load of couplings on the back.

[Richard Peskett]

Richard

 

I understand that many pre-subsidy lorries/vans went to the front early in the war. Do you happen to know whether information sources exist in this regard?

 

Thanks

 

Robert

 

Robert,

 

A very interesting question. The vehicles involved probably total about 700, I have found conflicting figuers in 'official' documents. It almost certainly included vehicles which joined the various schemes on offfer before the final scheme following trials of 1913, hence it was a great assortment .At least one manufacturer 'unofficially' entered the trials by following the official route at the same time to prove their vehicle was as good as others complying with W.O.spec. Immediately arguements broke out in the trade press ( Commercial Motor ,Motor Traction) why certain makes were included contrary to the original specification issued by the W.O. ( the inclusion of chain drive vehicles etc.). As so often in these cases the tide of time rapidly overtook with the W.O. eventually having to accept what was on offer. A prime example was ( London ) Daimler CC and LGOC 'B' type buses being handed over to the W.O. from August onwards in 1914 with totals finally exceeding 1000 vehicles, many giving yeoman service for the entire conflict. In all my research over the years I am convinced that somewhere there is a register of vehicles 'enlisted' in the schemes and also a register of those which were actually requistioned in August 1914. This/these items have completely eluded me which includes PRO Kew ( probably the most likely source) . My good friend David Fletcher ( ex. Tank Museum) has come up against the same wall !. Disposal lists are equally difficult although there is limited info. at Kew.

Richard Peskett.

[Roy Larkin]

Robert,

 

In all my research over the years I am convinced that somewhere there is a register of vehicles 'enlisted' in the schemes and also a register of those which were actually requistioned in August 1914. This/these items have completely eluded me which includes PRO Kew ( probably the most likely source) . My good friend David Fletcher ( ex. Tank Museum) has come up against the same wall !. Disposal lists are equally difficult although there is limited info. at Kew.

Richard Peskett.

 

I agree Richard, I've searched high and low for any register of vehicles requisitioned but to no avail, except for a few isolated mentions and a few disposals, particularly from Kempton Park. Don't forget the hundreds that were requisitioned in August and September 1914 after those on the subsidy scheme had been exhausted. Kensington Gardens did have information as to where suitable vehicles could be found for requisition on Mobilisation, which gave the type of vehicle and the company name and address, but there is no record as to what they requisitioned. It is clear though that there was little regard as to whether any vehicle was registered under the subsidy scheme or not though. It was also noted that 'every effort' should be made to induce the driver to be requisitioned with the vehicle with a tempting offer of 6 shillings per day wages, which was good money in those days.

[Runflat]

I agree Richard, I've searched high and low for any register of vehicles requisitioned but to no avail..

 

The sad thing is we don't know what is or isn't in Bart Vanderveen's archive. Following his death it went to the General George C Marshall Museum at Zwindrecht in the Netherlands. That closed and the contents went to the National War and Resistance Museum at Overloon. (http://www.oorlogsmuseum-overloon.nl/index.php?t=en)

 

As far as I'm aware, Bart's collection is still in boxes and is unable to be used for research. A crying shame.

[Redherring]

I wonder if Rod Dux has come across any information in the AWM? Are you there Rod?

[Charawacky]

Along with a topical subject here is a possible subsidy 1912 vehicle?

What sort is it

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/city-news/royal-mail-privatisation-vince-cable-2355550

[Richard Peskett]

Almost certainly a Milnes-Daimler , has a replacement radiator of more sturdy construction. Probably owned by Thomas Tilling who had a large fleet of these vehicles, some former buses and others which were lorries from new, carrying mail out of London on contract before the Post Office bought their own vehicles.

Richard Peskett.

[BSM]

Redherring, I could think of a cheeky response or two but back to the thread.... the short answer is no! While there is quite a lot of Brit. related and created documentation there and also at the NAA as one would expect given the agreements made at the 1909 Defence Conference in London etc. [plus the seconded British Officers guiding the development of the AMF] but I have not come across the sort of material suggested earlier in the thread, i.e., the listing of pre WW1 vehicles impressed, purchased or otherwise by the WO for Military use etc.

If any list or lists still exist I believe you need to focus in areas such as, but not limited to, the early records for both the Police and the Intelligence Corps. We had a similar situation here in Australia for the same time frame. Nothing as yet for the Police prior to WW1 [mainly contracted civilian transport prior to WW1] however there is documented evidence that the Aust. Int. Corps (AIC) was charged with the responsibility of preparing a list of serviceable civilian transport in each State. That listing was used by the "powers that be" to identify and purchase etc. new and used lorries for the first 2 AASC Companies to embark in 1914. The hunt is ongoing for said lists.

Back to the British side of the equation....given once again that our Military methodology was based directly on the British system I would suggest that something similar occurred in the UK therefore R.Int. Corps records or those of the WO Branch they reported to may hold something.

When the Aust. 8th and 9th Companies set up at Romsey they promptly received a visit followed by correspondence [i have copies] from the local Police chief regarding WO registration/vehicle marking requirements which supports a good Police understanding and possible listing (?) of transport used for Military purposes leading up to 1914 in Britain. This also confirms a direct link between the WO and the Police on this matter.

I don't know much about the English Local Government system but later documentation issued by the Local Government Board on matters "Military Registration" supports another source of vehicle records which may still exist in archives somewhere. The treasure hunt continues!! Rod

 

I wonder if Rod Dux has come across any information in the AWM? Are you there Rod?

[Charawacky]

I came across an article which relates to a subsidy lorry which gained notoriety through its commercial livery advertising 'HP Sauce - The Worlds Appetiser'. The vehicle which had originally been owned by Maples Store and retained its infamous wartime brilliant scarlet livery when operational with RFC No. 5 Squadron in France in 1914.

 

No more info but shows how quickly the subsidy vehicles were pressed into service.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Charawacky