59Prototype Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 ‘Confused of Brazil’ writing! Can anyone unravel the following for me please? Have a look at these photos and catalogue entries. What and where are my questions? Am I right in saying that there was no FVRDE exhibition in 1961 so I believe that what you see relates to 1962 and 1963. We have a Moke as Exhibit Number 3 which I think is from 1962. The main reason for saying so is that within the text they refer to the Mini-Minor and Austin Seven, names that BMC used when the Mini was launched in August 1959 but dropped in 1962. Then you have a photo of a shortwheel base Moke with a large number 3 in the windscreen. I had always though this photo to be from 1962 and certainly the exhibit number of 3 ties in with the catalogue number. The motorbike alongside with the reg. no. 393 AER is also a clue. AER registrations started to be issued in November 1961. However this photo of the Moke doesn’t tie in with the catalogue photo which shows a LHD long wheelbase Moke! What is further confusing is that spec. for the Moke under Exhibit No. 3 is for a SWB Moke! My thinking is that BMC were exhibiting the SWB version as seen in the photo with the 3 in the windscreen but somehow submitted the wrong photo to go in the catalogue. Are you following this?!! Then we come to Exhibit No. 4. in the catalogue which I think is from 1963. It looks as though the same error as described above was carried through from 1962 to 1963. The text has been changed and reference to the Mini-Minor and Austin Seven in favour of ‘range of mini cars’ and has been dropped but the spec. details are virtually the same. It still described as having a 72” wheelbase (i.e SWB) as opposed to the 80” wheelbase (LWB and therefore standard Moke wheelbase.) Finally you have two photos of 27 AE 03 which is commonly referred to as the RAF Moke. (My thanks to Keith Brooker for the additional photo). I have already checked this out with Wally and who thinks it is a red herring. Although it too has a large number 3 in the windscreen he thinks it just a coincidence. Wally thinks the photo was taken at an RAF exhibition rather than an FVRDE exhibition but what year? I would guess at 1962? Is the Land Rover behind in one of the photos a clue? To add to the curiosity if this is an RAF exhibition they too had a motorbike next to the Moke. As I write this I am now not so sure it was at a RAF exhibition. I'll let you all have your say then perhaps come back to you with my thoughts in a new post. Does anyone have the FVRDE catalogues to be able to check the information out? Perhaps BMC exhibited more than one Moke each year and there was more than one exhibit entry in the catalogue? Would anyone like to have a go at sorting all this out?! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 HI GRAHAM JUST a few points first picture exhibit no3 states length 9 ft 2 when i went to school that was 98 inches exhibit 4 states the length as 10 ft that is 120 inches so where have figures you have come from also in the same CHERTSEY BOOK AS EXHBIT 4 dated 1962 landrovers 23 DM 20 AND 44 DM 40 ARE SHOWN l have some of the CHERTSEY books but missing is 1961 which none of my friends have there is a story that there was not one for that year who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 SORRY GRAHAM MISS read length for wheel base you know what l mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 Wally Ok, I'll forgive you! In any case I was going to take you to task about 9ft 2in. being 98 inches. We had longer inches at the school I went to so the answer came to 110 inches!!!!! But back to the question in hand. If you say that the Land Rovers 23 DM 20 and 44 DM 40 were both at Chertsey in 1962 then presumably 22 DM 20 was too. Does that mean that you now think that the RAF Moke, or shall I say the Moke with the RAF registration, WAS at Chertsey in 1962 and not at a similar RAF exhibition? That's how I now starting to think on this. What do you think? I've other thoughts on this but I'll post them once you've had a chance to reply. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 GRAHAM The ones l quoted where at the 1962 exhibition the one in the picture with moke is not in the book as l said in my e mail to you THE RAF moke number does puzzle me as i also said that number seems to be from 1967 but you recall that l also said l know very liittle about the workings of the RAF system regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I joined 1964 and never heard of RAF exhibitions our stuff was shown at Chertsey with all the Army stuff the only exception being a couple of fire fighting exhibitions. You cannot safely give a date for RAF stuff from the reg number, for example - Mk 6 fire trucks were mostly 23 AG ** circa 1958 and 26 AG** circa 1962/3 but then bingo we have a batch dated 1960 which slid nicely into an unused block of 03 AG** numbers !! I wonder if Bryan has the 27AE03 record card at Hendon ?? TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 HI TED the reason for my mentioning a exhibition been hosted by the RAF was l had a friend who worked at J A T E who contacted me for the loan of some vehicles for a thing they where putting on this photograph could have been taking at such a event also graham has already contacted HENDON and awaits a reply AS to the role of the MOKE at CHERTSEY WE have the paper work copies of which l hope to give to GRAHAM WHEN HE COMES OVER regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 GRAHAM UNTIL today l had not seen the second photograph of the AUSTIN MOKE exhibit no 3 that was taken at CHERTSEY near to the area used for engineering exhibitions ALSO THE PICTURE OF THE LANDROVER IN THE 1962 BOOK 44 DM 40 ALSO APPEARS IN THE 1981 SAME LANDROVER ALSO DOES 23 DM 20 WHY USE THE SAME PICTURE nine years apart in 1962 we had 2As headlights in the grill 1981 we had series 3 headlights in the wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 HI TED the reason for my mentioning a exhibition been hosted by the RAF was l had a friend who worked at J A T Ewho contacted me for the loan of some vehicles for a thing they where putting on this photograph could have been taking at such a event also graham has already contacted HENDON and awaits a reply AS to the role of the MOKE at CHERTSEY WE have the paper work copies of which l hope to give to GRAHAM WHEN HE COMES OVER regards wally Of course JATE pity the background of the pics do not reveal anything; I noticed from the couple of Chertsey exbo catologues I have seen incorrect pictures for the period ? TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 17, 2013 Author Share Posted August 17, 2013 Well I'm now pretty sure that the photos of the SWB Moke and the Moke with the RAF registration were all taken at FVRDE Cherstey in 1962. I've been studying the photos closely, call it 'sleuthing' if you like. Here are my thoughts to put before the HMVF jury overseen by Judge Dugan! 1. They both have a '3' in the windscreen. 2. It has been raining in both photos but appears to be drying up. 3. There are oil stains on the tarmac where a longer vehicle was once parked. 4. The join in the tarmac (concrete?) with bitumen behind the Moke in each photo is in about the same place. 5. The motorbike in both photos. Whilst you can only see all of it in one photo and the rear end in another, what you can see in the other photo appears to be the same. Seat shape and shade is the same. Also it is parked to the right of the Moke in each photo. It was Exhibit No. 2. 6. The motorbike reg. is 383 AER. AER is a Cambridge reg. first issued in November 1961 so 1962 as an exhibition date drops in nicely. 7. Have a look at the Land Rover behind the RAF Moke in the other photo you have of the RAF Moke. It has an Army registration not an RAF one. I think that this has already been pointed out today. 8. The crash barriers that you see in one of the RAF Moke photos and also in the SWB Moke photo is the same type. None of the above in isolation is proof that it was FVRDE in 1962 but when you put it all together it's a very good indication that the RAF Moke was there as well as the SWB Moke. So it looks as though BMC exhibited 2 Mokes, the SWB one and the LWB RAF registered one in 1962. However the photo BMC supplied for the catalogue was of totally different Moke. If you were in the market for contracting with BMC for the supply of some Mokes there's a good chance that by the time you left Chertsey you were well and truly confused! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 GRAHAM l will go along with your thinking you have looked at the photos in depth yes the motorcycle is in both photos its a bit of a coincidence that they would take THE MOKE AND THE BIKE to another location yes the landrovers are army there is no doubt so chertsey seems to be the location well done HOLMES REGARDS WALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 GRAHAM l will go along with your thinking you have looked at the photos in depth yes the motorcycle is in both photosits a bit of a coincidence that they would take THE MOKE AND THE BIKE to another location yes the landrovers are army there is no doubt so chertsey seems to be the location well done HOLMES REGARDS WALLY I will have a look on PATHE tonight sure their is some exbo footage ? ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 TED there is film of the 1962 CHERTSEY EXHIBITION look up chertsey vehicles for army lots of nice clips including the cuthbertson tracked landrover but no MOKES in my collection of photos from chertsey there are examples of RAF VEHICLES including the thornycroft RAF fire service also fotage of the mk 6 at alvis on a film about saladin stawart saracen and a small section on fire fighting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Well I'm now pretty sure that the photos of the SWB Moke and the Moke with the RAF registration were all taken at FVRDE Cherstey in 1962. I've been studying the photos closely, call it 'sleuthing' if you like. Here are my thoughts to put before the HMVF jury overseen by Judge Dugan! 1. They both have a '3' in the windscreen. 2. It has been raining in both photos but appears to be drying up. 3. There are oil stains on the tarmac where a longer vehicle was once parked. 4. The join in the tarmac (concrete?) with bitumen behind the Moke in each photo is in about the same place. 5. The motorbike in both photos. Whilst you can only see all of it in one photo and the rear end in another, what you can see in the other photo appears to be the same. Seat shape and shade is the same. Also it is parked to the right of the Moke in each photo. It was Exhibit No. 2. 6. The motorbike reg. is 383 AER. AER is a Cambridge reg. first issued in November 1961 so 1962 as an exhibition date drops in nicely. 7. Have a look at the Land Rover behind the RAF Moke in the other photo you have of the RAF Moke. It has an Army registration not an RAF one. I think that this has already been pointed out today. 8. The crash barriers that you see in one of the RAF Moke photos and also in the SWB Moke photo is the same type. None of the above in isolation is proof that it was FVRDE in 1962 but when you put it all together it's a very good indication that the RAF Moke was there as well as the SWB Moke. So it looks as though BMC exhibited 2 Mokes, the SWB one and the LWB RAF registered one in 1962. However the photo BMC supplied for the catalogue was of totally different Moke. If you were in the market for contracting with BMC for the supply of some Mokes there's a good chance that by the time you left Chertsey you were well and truly confused! Graham Hi Graham, I did some photo selection articles for Vintage Roadscene magazine a few years ago, with photos they supplied from Stilltime (same as seen on this thread, only several shots from differing angles) and were taken at the 1962 Chertsey display. The two motorcycles are different, one nearest the Moke is a Greeves and the other a Triumph Tiger Cub. I researched these thoroughly before being published. The reason for two vehicles bearing the same number board, 3 in the case of the Moke is easy, one is on the static display and the other is the demonstration vehicle on the mobility displays. I could be that the original concept Moke was used in the static and a later version on the mobility. As for the RAF "AE" number, the RAF reissued numbers over the years so the number could have been used several times. regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Yes, Ted and Wally there is footage on Pathe News about the 1962 FVRDE Exhibition at Chertsey. Regretfully it doesn't include anything on the Moke. However it does give a good idea of what the exhibition was all about. Here's the link: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/vehicles-for-army In checking out FVRDE, Chobham and Chertsey I also came across several more clips that will be of interest to many. Rather than go off thread and post them here I think I'll start a new 'Pathe News' thread. If you all start to yawn and say 'Oh no, we've seen it all before' then stop me now! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Thanks Graham saves having a search TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 RICHARD in the 1962 chertsey exhibition book exhibit one is a TIGER CUB exhibit two 24D .B GREEVES NO REG NUMBERS SHOWN this reuse of registration numbers i have mentioned before l have sheets of vehicles listed and over a period of time the same number reappears on differant manufactures vehicles this of course does not make life easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Wally and Richard That all ties in. Now having a better quality version of that photo I've had another look at it. Yes, it says Greeves on the petrol tank. As exhibit 2 that would make sense as we know the Moke was exhibit 3. The registration number of the Greeves is 383 AER. As for the army and RAF registration number conundrum, it strikes me that both services chopped and changed numbers as they went along but the RAF was worse at it than the Army! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 GRAHAM IN defence of the army the system they used was well structured it was only at CHERTSEY IT was a bit of a mess but having records does help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 Wally I should have responded to the following sooner. You said in an earlier post: ...also graham has already contacted "]HENDON and awaits a reply AS to the role of the MOKE at CHERTSEY WE have the paper work copies of which l hope to give to GRAHAM WHEN HE COMES OVER Sadly the RAF Museum at Hendon does not have a vehicle record card for 27 AE 03. Whether they have anything else on the RAF Moke I don't as yet know. You also mention the paper work copies which you hope to give to me when I am home in the middle of September. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Paper work copies of what? Are they something that you can email to me? Having to wait around a month will be torture!!! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 This evening I have just found this in the Commercial Motor archive. It's a report on the 1962 FVRDE Exhibition at Chertsey. A report packed full of information. http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/5th-october-1962/79/demonstrations-at-chobham Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 JUST got a new box of files in one of the photograph albums there are photograph of two moke one of moke estabilishment number 6012 which is chassis numberSPL 467 AM The other is the same as in the first post the Austin Moke also there are the trials reports but they have suffered from the effects of uv light but I am hopeful that they can be recovered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Prototype Posted September 7, 2013 Author Share Posted September 7, 2013 Wally, that's good news! 6012 (SPL 467) is the Moke we believe was the RAF Moke, i.e. 27 AE 03 so it will be interesting to see if the photo you have just found yields any new clue. I'm not sure what you mean about the other photo when you say it was the same Moke as in the first post. Do you mean the short wheelbase one that was at Chertsey in 1962? As for the trials reports being affected by UV you should still be able to pull out the information once they have been copied on to a computer. It's amazing what details (mostly in faded photos) that I have been able to pull out using the computer. Fingers crossed once again! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 GRAHAM The photograph l mentioned is the one in post number one on this thread showing the AUSTIN MOKE at the FVRDE EXHIBITION with the motorcycle The pictures l have where taking on site without any other vehicles in the shot it shows the front and offside and the nearside and rear AS to the reports l will try what you suggest to night if that fails l will ask the Boys at reprographics if they can help its not what you know its who you know REGARDS WALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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