Tanker Wannabe Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 After reading in this forum for some time now and following some of the restorations avidly, I have been wondering how great an extent the restorers go to to maintain originality. I realize that some parts have to be replaced/made as originals are not available at any price but how far does that replacement go. There was a truck on here some time ago where the frame had suffered considerable damage both from rusting and then someone picking it up in the middle which was where the most damage from the rust had occured. This had caused the frame to bend almost like a horseshoe. Now would it be better for orignallity to cut and splice the frame or to replace both complete rails? Also if a cross member is rivited in and badly damaged/rusted out, is it better to bolt a replacement piece in or have it rivitted :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Ah! The ongoing debate! With the Dennis, and all of our vehicles, we have set ourselves a standard where we want it to look as if it has been cared for using factory parts. We don't mind original parts looking a bit 'used' as they are, after all, nearly 100 years old now but we try extremely hard not to deviate from the original design when we make new. The Dennis cannot claim to be an 'original' vehicle as we have put it together using parts from multiple sources. However as far as it can, it has been assembled from Dennis factory parts. Where parts were beyond repair, we have copied them as closely as possible. We have been very fortunate in that the original drawings have survived so we have been able to make parts to them. We don't consider these parts to be replicas but more 'further originals'! As to making repairs, the chassis frame should be entirely rivetted. However, we have used bolts in some places thus deviating from the factory specification. This we consider acceptable as it is a recommended fix in the maintenance manuals of the time. The aim was not to produce an 'as-new' example but one that is 'used but cared for'. At the end of the day we all look after our vehicles to a standard that satisfies ourselves and as long as we are honest about what we have done there is room for every approach. After all, we only do it for the pleasure that it gives us! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fayjo56 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 What a superb reply, well done sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Steve is absolutley right. How many vehicles even at ten to fifteen years old are 'Original'? Parts will have benn replaced maybe some body work repaired repalced with pattern parts. Any Military vehicle is a working vehicle, it's purpose is to serve the men in the feild. It will be subject to abuse no rich man's plaything would ever meet. My question is , would the original designers recognise it and would the fitters be able to work on it? If so it is original as any vehicle can be. My WC54 has several sixty year old body repairs. Sheets cut to fit over damage , drilled and screwed on. That's how it was done, to spend a fortune and retore to Haut Concores would be like injecting Botox, a lot of pain and difficulty to pander to others desire. Dents lumps and bumps are part of vehicles history. Edited September 7, 2012 by Tony B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSM Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Second the motion .... well put and totally agree. When you have actually done a restoration or 2 irrespective of the era, it puts a totally different slant on things!! Regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Interesting thoughts ... .. I've just finished reading a book Jack recommended on the 51st Highland Division fighting through Normandy and on to Germany in 44/45..........now I know that was during proper 'wartime' but .. ...By late 1944 there is a clear mention in the book of the Division being supplied with Jeeps that had been re-assembled from other smashed / battle damaged / worn out / etc Jeeps.....so..... ...knowing this.... ...any claim that someone owns an 'original' wartime Jeep is surely a bit of wishful thinking isn't it??? Maybe you do have an original one but.....'your' Jeep may well have been the end result of half a dozen others long before the war even ended .....let alone 30 or 40 or 60 years later when you finally get to own it... Yep ..I know if they were assembled out of other wartime Jeeps, then they were still 'original' second world war Jeeps..but it's obvious the procedure of cobbing vehicles together and as Tony said 'making do and mending' was going on way back 'in the day' :laugh:...... ..Personally speaking, I love to see a Jeep ( and any other military vehicle come to that) looking like it has been 'used' rather than looking like some delicate and absolutely immaculate museum piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Interesting thoughts ... . ...By late 1944 there is a clear mention in the book of the Division being supplied with Jeeps that had been re-assembled from other smashed / battle damaged / worn out / etc Jeeps.....so..... ...knowing this.... ...any claim that someone owns an 'original' wartime Jeep is surely a bit of wishful thinking isn't it??? Maybe you do have an original one but.....'your' Jeep may well have been the end result of half a dozen others long before the war even ended .....let alone 30 or 40 or 60 years later when you finally get to own it... Extend that time frame back to the Great War. Routine work was to recover damaged vehicles and use the parts to keep other vehicles operating. This policy probably stretches back further to refurnishing horse drawn wagons in earlier conflicts. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.303fan Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 my civvy 109 gets restored to the day i got it. it has a ex military rear axle and tub. all the plates rivited to it stay, same as dents. it has wood interiour made from a dark mahogany.. i like it, and it stays that way as i got it. the 101fc we restore till the point we know how it was. cab been sand blasted, the rear we could copy the last camo paint work. tags and other military info was gone, only the small cross remained on the air intake on top. as for restorations, like the dennis, bolts can be used to show whats old and whats newer. there are many way's to restore a vehicle, including upgrades for safety. we all do what we can live with. the rest of my vehicles are kept on the road using all i can get my hands on. would a ex raf series3 be a bad thing as it has auto clutch fitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 What is originality? For a military vehicle or likewise a commercial vehicle, is it as it left the factory;a chassis and cab. Then to a body builder to be altered for a particular use. Still as a new truck its now a changed item. Then change axle types or configuration, change an engine or gearbox , add additional springs. Rebuild the cab. All these things are part of a trucks life and reflect it's usage. Least with WW1 trucks there are set requirements to which the trucks supplied to the War Department had to apply to. Using those as a guide we can rebuilt a vehicle in the style as what would have been used ( the Dennis and the Thornycroft of Great War Truck and family follow this pattern) Post war use saw lots of modification and adaptation , and some of our collection will follow this track. This is a reflection on the availability of engines and other parts of the period, to at least get things mobile and no different to that of the vehicles background. In summary, some vehicles are restored as per new, or thereabouts, and other reflect a latter period in it's life. Doug:-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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