BEDFORD QL ARRY FIRE SERVICE info wanted on history please

[bedford trucker]

hello

a friend of mine has recently bought a 1943/44 bedford ql army fire service truck based on a qld chassis (believed to be from ripon area) as most parts are present he is planning a full restoration and wanted to know if anyone could shed some light of its history in service an any information on the layout of all the equipment in the load bed to help with the restoration.

also there is no documents present.

any information would be great

thanks

paul

[Willyslancs]

one like this?...........

[bedford trucker]

yes thats the one, where is that

[Willyslancs]

Farmer parrs Fleetwood ( was John Harrisons )....

[Willyslancs]

found this pic too ..........

[Richard Farrant]

found this pic too ..........

 

The rear of the body has been shortened and sides angled. Have pic somewhere of how they were originally. Another was found in Norway a few years ago, as it left the army in BAOR Germany.

[Runflat]

Another survivor:

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p1036399512/h2a2e676a#h2a2e676a

http://ccmv.aecsouthall.co.uk/p1036399512/h2a2e676a#h36b4889d

 

and a period photo here:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?10005-Military-Fire-Appliances-Gallery/page15

[bedford trucker]

thanks for the replys and pictures, were they painted red originally does anyone know.

 

thanks, paul

[Runflat]

They were originally painted in Mickey Mouse camoflauge, though various sources say the headboard was painted red but I've not seen documentary evidence to that effect.

 

Various photos of these Army Fire Service trucks exist in museum archives. The Imperial War Museum has four portrait photos, which when I did some research on these vehicles I noted as:

KID1429 - left-hand side view

KID3321 - rear internal view

KID3371 - rear left 3/4 view

KID3372 - front left 3/4 view

 

My memory is hazy but suspect two of them are these photos (which also appear in Robert Coates' book "Bedford to Berlin" and Mike Conniford's Military Vehicle Pamphlet Number 5 - Bedford QL):

 

L5294998

 

 

L5295025

 

 

An article on GYR786 in Vintage Commercial Vehicles magazine (No 109; January 1999) has this view courtesy of the Tank Museum, Bovington:

 

 

 

GYR786 appeared for sale in the May 2003 edition of Classic and Vintage Commercials magazine.

 

I have some more information that I'll try and dig out.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Runflat

[chevpol]

In one of the books on WW11 British Army clothing, there is a picture of a Axrmy Fire Service member climbing into the cab of a QL fire tender, it was used to show the Mk4 helmet, so it is not a full picture.

 

I cant think of the book now, but somebody must have one?

 

Mark

[Runflat]

Mark, I don't know the book but suspect the image used is B8125 below. These are more photos from the IWM collection - from a series starting at B8120 - poor photocopies, but they give the gist. Better copies can be obtained from the museum itself. To quote the official narrative:

 

Taken by Sgt. Wilkes, 27 July 1944

 

The Army in Normandy has it's own fire service which is doing very good service in the towns and villages which are liberated. The functions of the Army Fire Service are to protect Army equipment, billets, barracks and ammunition dumps in case of fire. Civilian property in liberated towns and villages also comes under the care of the Fire Service. In this case they have the assistance of the local French fire service and equipment.

 

Civilian personnel also act as spotters at night for fires and greatly assist in speedy information of local outbreaks. Two such spotters are located in the 200 foot high tower of Caen church and have an excellent view of the whole city. They are in telephonic communication with the Army Fire Service HQ and fires are speedily brought under control. Many others are observed by watchers and runners give the information to AFS HQ.

 

These pictures show typical Fire Fighting Company stationed in Caen, (104 Fire Fighting Company) commanded by Capt. R H Allison of Hull in action in the city.

 

All personnel of the AFS have had at least two years blitz experience in Britain before joining the army, this is one chief reason for it being such an efficient arm of the BLA.

 

 

B8120: One of the tenders of the Army Fire Service. (Shows L5295016) http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO29486&SE=71&RN=0&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=phoResults&EF=&DF=phoDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=162833&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

 

 

B8121: Two of the members of the 104 Coy AFS buckle on their belts ready for action. Sgt. J Mellows of Derby and Cpl. H Beers of Long Melton, Derby. (Shows L5295103)

 

 

B8122: L to R Ptes. J S Stephens, A A Lea and F R Oliver of Birmingham, and Pte S Singleton of Leamington, members of the Army Fire Service at Caen. (Shows L5295012)

 

 

B8123: Pte J Liddell, Cpl. R J Smith and Pte. McGinley

 

 

B8124: Ptes. J Eltoft and J Walsh of Burnley. (Shows L5295012)

 

 

B8125: Sgt. E J Allen of Luton, Beds who drives one of the Army Fire Service tenders photographed as he boards his vehicle. (Shows L5295103)

 

 

B8126: Capt. R H Allison of Hull, who commands 104 Coy AFS.

 

B8127: Lt. Col. J B Hannah, officer in charge Army Fire Service. BWEF.

 

B8128: M R Pervilhac, French Liaison Officer attached to the Army Fire Service. Lt. Col. J B Hanna, Belfast, Maj. F L Dew and Capt. Allison.

 

B8129: RSM Walters of Dorking.

 

B8130: One of the French civilian observers keeps a sharp look out through field glasses from the top of Caen church tower.

 

B8131: Another French civilian look out keeping watch for fires from the top of Caen church tower.

 

B8132: A view from the top of the 200 foot tower of Caen church. Little damage can be seen in the town from this view point.

 

B8133: Telephone operator Pte. A Singleton of Leamington, keeps in touch with the fire watchers with his field telephone.

 

B8134: Pte. Blackmore of Taunton and Pte. J Hudson of Middlesborough, who dash from the scene of fires to HQ with messages.

 

B8135: The crew get aboard one of the tenders immediately a call is received that a fire has broken out in the town. (Shows L5295016; not sure why I didn't get a copy!)

 

B8136: As soon as the team arrive at the scene of a fire a pump is set to work and lengths of hose run from it.

 

 

B8137: Two of the team running hose from the pump to the scene of the fire.

 

B8138: A garage in Caen has been set on fire and soon the Army Fire Service are hard at work subduing the flames.

 

B8139: Two members of the team manning a hose at the garage fire.

 

B8140: Another striking picture of two of the team manning a hose.

 

B8141: Members of the Army Fire Service putting out a fire at a garage in Caen.

 

B8142: The fire out two of the team roll up hoses.

 

B8143: Pte. R Thorpe of Harwich, dressed in a Proto Appliance which enables the firemen to work in smoke and unknown gases. http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO29486&SE=71&RN=1&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=phoResults&EF=&DF=phoDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=213616&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

 

B8144: Back at Headquarters after putting the fire out a meal is served. Here is Pte. W G Ingram of Newport, the company cook, ladling out dinner.

 

B8145: During a rest period members of the company take part in a French lesson.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Runflat
IWM links

[chevpol]

Picture B8125 is the photo I remember.

 

Mark

[Runflat]

Some more IWM references:

 

H21656-21667: AFS training

 

H31478-31484: Army school of fire fighting, includes picture of L5204998

 

H32769-32784: No. 101 Fire fighting Co., The Stables, Bagshot Park

 

H42766 & H42767: Allied victory parade London, 1946:

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO29486&SE=71&RN=2&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=phoResults&EF=&DF=phoDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=176967&NR=0&NB=1&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO29486&SE=71&RN=3&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=phoResults&EF=&DF=phoDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=176968&NR=0&NB=1&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

[Runflat]

The National Archive has various files linked to the Army Fire Service. Here are some extracts from a 16 page potted history (file WO 305/3025):

 

Before the 39/45 war the Army had no organized Army Fire Service, though a fire fighting school existed at Aldershot to train NCOs of all arms in elementary fire protection duties.

 

In July 1941 a Fire Fighting Wing within the Pioneer Corps was formed. At the same time the school at Aldershot was closed and replaced by an Army Fire Fighting School at Catterick. By January 1942 the Army Fire Service had expanded to 1,500 all ranks.

 

The Leyland fire engine, which had been the pre-war appliance used by the Army could no longer be produced in sufficient numbers; neither was it suitable for "blitz" conditions or operations in the field. Consequently a standard fire tender lorry was introduced in September 1942. The fire tender lorry consisted of a special body fitted to the standard Bedford 4-wheeled 3-ton chassis. It was designed to tow a medium trailer fire pump and to carry a light trailer pump, portable dams, ladders, foam making equipment, hose, ropes, axes, breathing apparatus and other small gear. It also contained a 200-gallon water tank, connected to a hose reel, which was fed by a small capacity pump driven from the vehicle's engine.

 

North West Europe 1944-45:

 

• 6 June 1944-25 July: Leading units landed on D+2. Three companies were used for protecting the three beach sub-areas, two companies for Mulberry 'B', the Rear Maintenance Area and No.2 Army Roadhead, whilst the sixth was responsible for Port-en-Bessin and the bulk petrol installations in the vicinity. 109 fires were attended during this phase; 44 were caused by enemy action, six of which were major fires.
  
• 26 July-26 September: Fire service control centres established at Dieppe, Amiens, Antwerp and Ostend. Army Fire Service units were summond to 250 fires, 8 of which were major and 26 due to enemy action. Many fires occurred owing to the tapping by French civilians of the bulk petrol line, which was in operation in Port-en-Bessin to the River Seine.
  
• 27 September-14 January 1945: The Army Fire Service concentrated on providing fire defence for the Nijmegan bridge-head, the Advance Base, the port of Antwerp, Corps forward maintenance centres, Army Roadheads, and bulk petrol pipe-lines. Fire Service control centres were established at Brussels, Ghent, Louvain, Tilburg, Nijmegan and Eindhoven, in addition to those at Antwerp and Ostend. Where possible these were established in existing civilian fire stations. Army Fire Service units were called to 559 fires, 12 of which were major fires and 103 due to enemy action. On 1/1/45 the enemy attacked airfields throughout Belgium and Holland. At Ghent, Brussels and Eindhoven, Army Fire Service companies were instrumental in fighting the fires and saving large quantities of RAF stores.
  
• Crossing the Mass and Rhine and the final advance: As a result of heavy commitments the Army Fire Service trailer pumps were showing signs of wear. With spare parts and replacements becoming increasingly difficult to obtain, a pool of new pumps was established in Brussels for issue on loan while AFS companies own were undergoing repairs. Army Fire Service units were called to 1,191 fires of which 22 were major and 188 due to enemy action. The most serious was when a V2 fell in Koboken Bulk Petrol Installations, setting fire to two large can-filling sheds, two trains loaded with canned petrol, a mobile filling centre and three groups of bulk storage tanks containing 13,500 tons of petrol. The conflagration threatened the whole installation which contained 102,658 tons of spirit. The fire was extinguished within 50 hours by the combined efforts of 18 pumps and three fire boats of the AFS, 5 pumps of the US Army and 6 of the Belgium civil brigade. Total loss amounted to 3,500 tons, representing 3.5% of the stock held.
  

 

On 1 July 1946 the Pioneer Corps Fire Fighting Wing was disbanded and the whole of the Army Fire Service absorbed into the RASC. In 1952 the school at Colchester was disbanded with training undertaken by local fire authorities. In 1957 the Hull Committee considered that the Army Fire Service was an essential requirement within the Army, but recommended that it should be civilianized.

[ted angus]

Here is an ex Army Fire Service QL in service early 1949 with Liverpool City brigade. The trailer pump is a Harland, these were one of the less common types. In Army service the QL tender always tows a Dennis large trailer pump. The pump in the back of the QL is a Coventry Climax FSM 3. THe QL in the attached is GYR 782 a near sister to the ex Lancs FB GYR 786 now under restoration.

TED

[Runflat]

Thanks Ted. Here are a couple of pictures of GYR717 from my collection (not for reproduction), enlarged from tiny snap shots. I don't know which brigade this vehicle went to.

 

 

 

 

[Dusty]

I don't know which brigade this vehicle went to.

 

 

It passed to Leicestershire & Rutland Joint Fire Brigade in 1948.

[ted angus]

2 great shots thanks.

Dusty I have GYR 715 as Liecs joint so that is another one accounted for, Dusty get that crew on a fizzer no helmet belt axe what ever is going on !!!

 

TED

[ted angus]

2 great shots  thanks. <BR>Dusty I have GYR 715 as Liecs joint so that is another one accounted for,  Dusty get that crew on a fizzer no helmet belt axe  what ever is going on !!! <BR><BR>TED

[Runflat]

Dusty / Ted, thanks for your input. Do you have any other pictures of these QLs in/out of Army Fire Service use?

 

Whilst we have a couple of experts to hand, do you recognise the uniforms in these two photos that I managed to acquire recently? I've no information on them, but the QL is clear enough to recognise. Note the spot-lights on the tilt frame! There appear to be a couple of squaddies in the first photograph, who I assume are training/assisting the local crew.

 

(Photographs not for reproduction)

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2011 by Runflat

[Dusty]

There is only one expert and that's Ted.

From the Cromwell cork helmets that are being worn I would say this was the 1950s or 1960s.

It looks to be somewhere hot, Kenya perhaps.

[ted angus]

Hey you know the definition of an expert !!

 

Yes any time after about 1950 to 1963. They were still going through the auctions in 1963 !!

 

If you zoom on the faces of the local lads I would say Malaysia; I would also say they were locally employed civillians of the Army Fire Service. - my only reservation is the size of the helmet badge ?? In almost all parts of the world in which the UK forces serve locally recruited lads served on the military fire services. On purely domestic stations they would form the majority of the strength, On many stations in Germany the far and middle east they formed about 40% of strength on flying stations. They were all very loyal people, I knew many in Cyprus and Germany.

 

TED

p.s just been looking at a couplew of mid 1950s piccies and the Cromwell helmet style and the huge basdge is the same as worn by the local lads in the previous shots.

Edited October 3, 2011 by ted angus

[Runflat]

Thanks for the answers. If you have any further thoughts, do shout. Meanwhile, some more pictures. These are press photos, the captions saying that units of the Army Fire Service are now in France, blah, blah. But they look like they were taken on a training exercise - presumably in the UK.

 

Most press photos are copies of 'official' photographs, which you can find in the IWM, with the inscriptions and reference numbers matching the official series. But I don't recognise the 'V' series here:

 

V3706: "Carrying a suction hose for the light pump, the edge of which is shown left"

 

 

V3709: "Carrying light pump across a stream while hose from a large pump in the stream itself are already in action."

 

 

V3713: "Tenders carrying two pumps and special foam equipment to deal with petrol fires are camoflagued on active service."

 

 

 

Anyone have any more from this series?

[Runflat]

One of the reasons I'm interested in these QLs is that after a period of service in the National Fire Service my Grandfather joined the army and was posted to the 62nd First Class Fire Brigade and then HQ 106 Fire Fighting Company, being deployed to France on 27/06/44 (D+19). Here are a couple of photographs of his mates from his album. Unfortunately a third similar picture, with my Grandfather in it, was lost in the postal system when my Grandmother sent it to my uncle in Australia. So if you should come across it (and some others) do let me know...

 

 

 

 

 

Note the local French liasion Officer.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Runflat

[Brooky]

Westmorland Fire Brigade had one that was based in Kendal (useful for getting over Shap in the bad weather)

Dad bought it in 1970 or thereabouts and used it in his business as a stone merchant

We used to put 6 ton on it and then drive it across country!!

It ended up being sold to a local agricultral engineer to make a live drive fertilizer spreader

 

Cant remember its number but it was definately GYR....