British Army personal small arms weapons

[Dougy FV432]

Hello All,

 

Amongst my interest in the post war vehicles of the British Army. I have slowly tried to collect kit to go with mine. But my query is that the era that mine is set, i know the weapons used would be either SLR and LMG, or SA80 and GPMG, but what "hand gun" would be issued and to who, and how would it be carried?

 

Regards

 

Dougy

[ferretfixer]

Hello All,

 

Amongst my interest in the post war vehicles of the British Army. I have slowly tried to collect kit to go with mine. But my query is that the era that mine is set, i know the weapons used would be either SLR and LMG, or SA80 and GPMG, but what "hand gun" would be issued and to who, and how would it be carried?

 

Regards

 

Dougy

 

Pistol,Browning 9mm No:2 MK.I*, or L9. Officers, WOI, (RSM) & the Drivers from a Centurion ARV Only. Also issued for COVERT work in N.I. S.A.S Personell for various work....:cool2:

[woa2]

I was talking to an ex-Royal Artillery Sgt some years ago and he said that when in N Ireland, he carried 2 Browning hand guns so that he always could have his hand on one ready when searching a car at a road block.

[Big Al]

We had browning 9mm in NI and also when on guard duties in germany, Browning 9mm were issued to all ranks so would not be out of place in your display.

Big Al

[recymech66]

Pistol,Browning 9mm No:2 MK.I*, or L9. Officers, WOI, (RSM) & the Drivers from a Centurion ARV Only. Also issued for COVERT work in N.I. S.A.S Personell for various work....:cool2:

 

 

Recovery mechanics from Cfn rank upwards operating on Armoured vehicles have been issued Browning 9mm pistol for years, they also used them in NI (along with other REME tradesmen) when out on the ground carrying out covert recovery tasks.

 

Presently Recy Mechs on current operations are still issued pistols to compliment other weapon systems.

[Lord Burley]

Wasn't it normally the policy for every serving soldier in N.I to be issued with personel weapons while off duty as well??. I point to the case of the tragic murders of L/CPL,s David Howes and Derek Woods of the Royal Signals who were off duty and and strayed in to an IRA funeral in 1987. Both were armed with Browning 9mm,s.

[rambo1969]

Certain people in NI also carried the walther ppk.

[schliesser92]

Whilst in Hong kong in the late 1960s, my father, as RSM of an Artillery Regiment, carried a 0.38 inch Smith and Wesson revolver. When I was in NI, I generally carried a Browning L9 whilst on my duties at Stormont Castle.

 

In some cases, other weapons were carried, and our armoury had a pair of Walther PPK.

 

My father maintained that if I had time to fire the issued ten rounds from a Browning, I should really consider the wisdom of being there in the first place !

[schliesser92]

Wasn't it normally the policy for every serving soldier in N.I to be issued with personel weapons while off duty as well??. I point to the case of the tragic murders of L/CPL,s David Howes and Derek Woods of the Royal Signals who were off duty and and strayed in to an IRA funeral in 1987. Both were armed with Browning 9mm,s.

 

In some circumstances, off-duty soldiers were allowed out of camp in groups of four, one of whom was armed.

[Yorkie370]

Wasn't it normally the policy for every serving soldier in N.I to be issued with personel weapons while off duty as well??

 

I doubt that those on roulemont tours carried PPW when off duty, although those of the UDR certainly did. I did a 2-year tour at HQNI and only carried a PPW when on duty. Dropping a HP when tripping round M&S could be embarrasing.

 

............I point to the case of the tragic murders of L/CPL,s David Howes and Derek Woods of the Royal Signals who were off duty and and strayed in to an IRA funeral in 1987. Both were armed with Browning 9mm,s.

 

Both were on duty, carrying out a handover of their op area.

 

As an aside, AAC aircrew were generally armed as follows;

 

BAOR & UK - Browning HP for the Pilot, SMG for his Aircrewman. NI Lynx crews (at least between 92 & 96) the Doorgunner was issued with a HP and a GMPG with 600 rounds 1B1T, while the front-seaters got a HK53 each.

[recymech66]

I doubt that those on roulemont tours carried PPW when off duty, although those of the UDR certainly did. I did a 2-year tour at HQNI and only carried a PPW when on duty. Dropping a HP when tripping round M&S could be embarrasing.

 

 

 

Both were on duty, carrying out a handover of their op area.

 

As an aside, AAC aircrew were generally armed as follows;

 

BAOR & UK - Browning HP for the Pilot, SMG for his Aircrewman. NI Lynx crews (at least between 92 & 96) the Doorgunner was issued with a HP and a GMPG with 600 rounds 1B1T, while the front-seaters got a HK53 each.

 

 

In certain circumstances they did, for instance when I used to go running, getting dropped off at Helens bay then running back to Kinnegar I had to carry a Browning in my daysack, it was a pain in the backside but would've rather had it than not. In contrast, shopping in Belfast city at the weekend there was no requirement to be armed.

[Yorkie370]

In certain circumstances they did, for instance when I used to go running, getting dropped off at Helens bay then running back to Kinnegar I had to carry a Browning in my daysack, it was a pain in the backside but would've rather had it than not. In contrast, shopping in Belfast city at the weekend there was no requirement to be armed.

 

Interesting. Perhaps either the PTB thought I'd be no great loss to the system, or the threat-level around Slipper City during my time there was low enough/risk of a cock-up high enough to preclude carriage.

 

Glad you didn't need to try getting a Browning out of a daysack in a hurry.

[recymech66]

Interesting. Perhaps either the PTB thought I'd be no great loss to the system, or the threat-level around Slipper City during my time there was low enough/risk of a cock-up high enough to preclude carriage.

 

Glad you didn't need to try getting a Browning out of a daysack in a hurry.

 

A thought that went through my head everytime, thankfully I never had to find out. Not sure if this was policy or local commanders decision at the time.:nut:

[Yorkie370]

Almost as much fun as trying to get one out of a shoulder-holster worn under a suit jacket whilst waving your arms at a Puma.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Yorkie370

[Chris Hall]

We carried the L9 in Iraq on EOD duties (All ranks), although the 4 juniors opted to leave theirs in the day armoury as when they carried them, they kept them in their Tac Vests and they soon realised they couldn't get them out quickly when they had their L85 slings around their shoulders. Myself (Man 2) and the Man one opted for belt holsters as we didn't always carry our rifles and we used the L9 as more of a primary weapon when out of the Snatch.

 

One of the Majors attached to the JTUKEOD GRP carried a Sig and when I asked the RLC IED Captain why he had a Sig as his side arm, he told me he was Ex special forces so it was his own. I'm unsure if that means he owned it him self (i.e. Safe custordy in the UK) or if it was permanently issued to him. I was happy to stick to the Browning though, that weight is quite reassuring on your hip.

[eddy8men]

just reading through this thread and the mention of the different personal weapons as well as normal issue weapons has reminded me of my time before we flew out for the gulf war, when we were waiting for the flight from raf gutersloh to saudi and the medical officer turned up with a brand new uzi, apparently as an officer he was allowed to bring his own toys and ammo but why he thought an uzi would save him i'll never know as by the time he needs to start shooting we would have all been in deep sh#t but it looked cool anyway although it was a little worrying.

 

eddy

[Yorkie370]

I was happy to stick to the Browning though, that weight is quite reassuring on your hip.

 

 

And when all else fails, you could inflict some serious trauma by simply lobbing it at your opponent.

[Lord Burley]

I don't know the ins and outs of operational tours of NI at the time. But if i remember rightly,they had finished duty and were travelling back to barracks in civvy clothes and driving a civvy VW Passat when they strayed in to the IRA funeral.

 

They actually thought at the time that they had caputred two members of the SAS. You could quite clearly hear the mob shouting they were SAS as they dragged them from the car. I thought whilst on duty no regular units wore civvy clothes and travelled in civilian cars apart from SF units??.

 

My cousin did two tours of NI in the early 90,s. Both in Armagh. At no point did he ever wear civvys or travel in civvy cars between travelling to o.p. points or general dutys.Nearly all the movements he done were by choppers to the Sangers over looking the border. Always willing to learn of other ex-service personnels experiance.

[Lord Burley]

 

And when all else fails, you could inflict some serious trauma by simply lobbing it at your opponent.

Or better still. You could use the HMVF mug that appears at the top of every page...:

[Yorkie370]

I don't know the ins and outs of operational tours of NI at the time. But if i remember rightly,they had finished duty and were travelling back to barracks in civvy clothes and driving a civvy VW Passat when they strayed in to the IRA funeral.

 

They actually thought at the time that they had caputred two members of the SAS. You could quite clearly hear the mob shouting they were SAS as they dragged them from the car. I thought whilst on duty no regular units wore civvy clothes and travelled in civilian cars apart from SF units??.

 

You'd be surprised at the amount of covert vehicle traffic that went on.

 

 

From my understanding, following a comprehensive de-brief and having watched the full, unabridged Chancellor coverage (the helitelly Lynx was covering the funeral, and was crewed by two very good friends of mine) the unfortunate pair were conducting a tour of their TAOR as part of a handover. The civvy clothes and covert car were part of their unit's routine ops. One had recently arrived from BAOR and had failed to sanitise his kit. He was carrying a SOXMIS card with the telephone number 'Herford 2222' (the SOXMIS sighting reporting number) which was interpreted in the heat of the moment as 'Hereford', ergo SAS.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Yorkie370

[Lord Burley]

Thanks for the in depth info. I was always of the opinion that they didn't stray in to it. But had actually gone to have a closer look at what was going on,and events soon consumed them. A very tragic end.

 

I feel that if the two had actually been SAS then the outcome would have been so different. Rather than warning shots being fired. A determined effort would have been made to get out of there at all costs,slotting a few on the way.

[Yorkie370]

Thanks for the in depth info. I was always of the opinion that they didn't stray in to it. But had actually gone to have a closer look at what was going on,and events soon consumed them. A very tragic end.

 

The general concensus was that they did stray off-route. The funeral was a well-promulgated Out-Of-Bounds. The footage shows that once they'd come face-to-face with the procession they tried reversing out.

 

I feel that if the two had actually been SAS then the outcome would have been so different. Rather than warning shots being fired. A determined effort would have been made to get out of there at all costs,slotting a few on the way.

 

The result wouldn't have been very different, just a number of 'civilian' casualties, 26 max.

[Mk3iain]

The general concensus was that they did stray off-route. The funeral was a well-promulgated Out-Of-Bounds. The footage shows that once they'd come face-to-face with the procession they tried reversing out.

 

 

 

The result wouldn't have been very different, just a number of 'civilian' casualties, 26 max.

 

This is what I have been told from other members of their unit who were later shown the full unedited version of the film taken, anyone who knows or has seen it will know "nuff said".

This film was later used to show new arrivals what could happen and so they would know when their life was at risk!

There was also speculation on the mag falling out of one of the brownings, they were extended capacity mags.

Very sad and quite shocking what humans can do to others.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Mk3iain

[schliesser92]

I don't know the ins and outs of operational tours of NI at the time. But if i remember rightly,they had finished duty and were travelling back to barracks in civvy clothes and driving a civvy VW Passat when they strayed in to the IRA funeral.

 

They actually thought at the time that they had caputred two members of the SAS. You could quite clearly hear the mob shouting they were SAS as they dragged them from the car. I thought whilst on duty no regular units wore civvy clothes and travelled in civilian cars apart from SF units??.

 

My cousin did two tours of NI in the early 90,s. Both in Armagh. At no point did he ever wear civvys or travel in civvy cars between travelling to o.p. points or general dutys.Nearly all the movements he done were by choppers to the Sangers over looking the border. Always willing to learn of other ex-service personnels experiance.

 

I was responsible for a secure radio-relay link between Stormont Castle and Lisburn, which then connected in to the Divis Mountain-Stranraer-London link. That was in 1973. I was driven to SC, dressed in civvies, usually in a Moggie 1000 Traveller.I should state that it was defined as smart civvies, ie jacket and tie, with the L9 in a shoulder holster. Other jobs, which required our technical expertise, but somewhat covert, like the voice-disguising device for witnesses at the Commissioners Court, were also carried out in civilian dress. We loved the court job - ever heard a Dalek with a broad Irish accent ? HILARIOUS !!

[Lord Burley]

This is what I have been told from other members of their unit who were later shown the full unedited version of the film taken, anyone who knows or has seen it will know "nuff said".

This film was later used to show new arrivals what could happen and so they would know when their life was at risk!

There was also speculation on the mag falling out of one of the brownings, they were extended capacity mags.

Very sad and quite shocking what humans can do to others.

I can only comment on what ive seen. Most of what was shot on the ground. And only part from the helitele. It seemed like L/Cpl Woods was the only one to draw his weapon and discharge it. From footage taken.L/Cpl Howes remains in his seat trying to fend of his attackers until they were both dragged from the car.

 

On a side note. Ive first hand personnel experiance of mob mentality and what can happen in situations like that.During the 1981 Brixton Riots, rioting had not long erupted when a transit van filled with young coppers entered the coldharbour lane area and straight in to a mob of 2-300 rioters.The van was quickly surrounded with a hate filled mob that were pulling at every door and smashing every window trying to get at the officers inside. The look of fear on the officers faces inside remained with me for quite a while. I have no doubt that if any had been dragged out they would have been killed.The hatred was that intense.(There were lots of calls for a babylons(Police)Head.

 

Only two things saved them that afternoon. The Transit they were travelling in was not the regular police type. But the green ones they used to transport low risk offenders to court and was fitted with bars along the windows. This prevented them being dragged from the van. The other was the experiance of a Sgt within the van who was able to make the fear stricken driver reverse enough so they could de-buss quickly and run away. The van was soon consumed in a cocktail of petrol bombs.

 

Contrary to what was reported later at Broadwater farm that it was the first place in the UK where armed officers were deployed in a time of civil unrest,then thats misinformation. Because they were actually deployed 4 years before hand at Brixton. I saw many plain clothes officers during the early hours over that long weekend openly with No 4 Lee Endfields with telescopic sights and some with .38 SW,s.

 

Sorry for the thread diversion.