Jack Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 OK, nice bit of debate in the Pardon post by Matt and it is something I would like to see more of on HMVF, it is wonderful to read other peoples views and sometimes it may even change your own stand point. I enjoyed ready every single post. On that point what does every one think of this http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,61-2311706,00.html most of us are aware of the Bomber Command campaign and how much controversy it caused then as now............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougiebarder Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Don't open all the can's of worm's at once, They'll go stale :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest matt Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Ok Jack you asked for it!. I listened to a debate on Radio Two about this today,one one side there was the guy(a bomber command veteran) who has headed the campaign to get a permanant memorial erected to the 55,000+ aircrew of Bomber Command who died between 1939 and 1945,and on the other side of the debate was a guy from the loonie pacifist movement(or something like that anyway :roll:) The loonie pacifist guy held the stance that it is wrong to erect a memorial to ANYONE involved in war as it promotes the idea that war is a good thing. Those in favor of the memorial simply said it was being erected in memory of,and to recognize the bravery of the men of the command. What struck me as interesting was in the phone in afterwards the vast majority of people were in favor of the memorial. I am personally not getting involved in a debate about the rights or wrongs of bombing cities,but what I will say is I have the greatest respect for ALL aircrew including those in the Luftwaffe,the fact that they were our enemy does not detract from their bravery. Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Personally I don't have a problem with this and I am very pleased to see something is at last going to be done to recognise the bravery and sacrifice of Bomber Command Aircrew. I only wish I could be at Lincoln Cathedral on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 A proper memorial is long overdue. Debating the rights and wrong of the offensive is pointless in 2006 but there should be no argument about the cruel way Bomber Command and Arthur Harris were treated by HMG. Bomber Command carried the war to Germany at huge cost. The cream of the pre-war youth were lost by this offensive - men from all backgrounds who had excelled in science, maths and technical subjects at school, quite apart from the athletes. They were a huge loss to post war Britain & the Empire. The sheer cost in terms of science, finance and industry just to carry it out was phenominal. It was probably the high point of British scientific and industrial cohesion. But the main issue is the men who were at the sharp end. They were dropped like a hot brick before the ink was even dry on the German surrender. No campaign medal, not even a clasp - a precedent was set as Churchill and his scientific advisor Lord Cherwell sought to distance themselves from the campaign. I think it is too late. Nobody really cares. Bomber Harris is still a criminal in the eyes of many and in 2006 the Germans are assiduously developing a victim culture. Harris said of the Germans 'They have sewn the fire, they will reap the whirlwind'. The offensive he ran was not his - he inherited it and perfected it. But he and his men remain damned by too many revisionists who have been able to do their dirty work. To be fair the offensive did have it's detractors at home and the particular angle that by carrying it out Britain was lowering itself to the level of Nazi criminality does have a ring of truth to it. When Harris got his CoS to lecture on the 'ethics of bombing', Pastor Bell replied with the 'bombing of ethics'. Fair point. But Harris, who hated the Germans with a passion, made a significant point when he said that all the German cities he had flattened were not worth the bones of a single British grenadier. Lincoln is a fitting place for a memorial - but the capital city has ignored Bomber Command (bar Harris' statue at St Clement Danes which is frequently abused) : a national disgrace. London is more concerned about what to do about a statue of Nelson Mandela - a great man; but hardly essential to the survival of the British people. It's a funny old world. Even the media darling Guy Gibson did not get a memorial because he was not pc - blame it on the dog! (who does have a memorial). There is a poem called Ellergy For a Rear Gunner: My brief sweet life is over. I can no longer see. No summer walks, no Christmas trees, no pretty girls for me. I've got the chop. I've had it. my nightly ops are done. But in a hundred years from now I'll still be twenty-one Nuff said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 The Luftwaffe bombed the crap out of Rotterdam and threatened the annihilation of a lot more if the Dutch didn't surrender. In fact the surrender happened before the bombardment. How about Guernica, or Warsaw. Not military targets, just terror bombing. Tragic of the german civilian victims but lets be honest, most of the german soldiers were civilians before they invaded half of Europe. To weep like a girl when you get back what you dished out is cheap. RESPECT to the allied airmen (even our Prince Bernhard flew in a bombermission while he wasn't supposed to) who fought the Nazi/German occupation and agression. No, I am not in a diplomatic mood here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardyferret Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 My Friends, Unfortunately we are part of Europe and as the years pass, and the Veterans who were there pass on, the truth can be distorted to suit those in power, and to appease the underdog....... give it another 20 years it will be Britains foreign policy provoked the peaceful German masses...... Daft... hope to be on this forum in 20 years Yours cynically Jerry HardyFerret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Don't forget who started the bombing of cities during the war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spood Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Well said Mark, where are all the bleeding hearts shouting about how terrible it was that the Germans bombed our cities and killed thousands of civilians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I refer readers to a comment by George MacDonald Frazer in the introduction his autobiography Quartered Safe Out Here, about his time as a section rfileman in The Border Regiment in Burma in 1944-45. In summary, it goes something like, "This is how it was then. Times were different. We had a war to win. We couldn't do it now, but it is different now. Listen to the loonies and we are made out to be animals. We weren't animals, we were ordinary men who were made to kill. We didn't have counsellors. How would we have survived the Blitz if we'd needed a counsellor for every Londoner affected by bombing?" It goes on. You could call it a theme or a rant, but entirely valid from someone who was there. Basically, who has the right to condemn his fathers and grandfathers for doing the only thing they could that would grant their children the right to condemn him for doing it? As for bombing Dresden (okay it wasn't mentioned but we know where the thread will go), when the Iron Curtain came down, Dresden's archives made it quite plain that an SS Panzer Korps was on trains in the city (IIRC either heading for or returning as remnants from the SS's last adventure, in Hungary). That made it a justifiable target, whether the intelligence supported it or not. If the German's didn't want historic cities bombed, they shouldn't have put troops there. End of story. Ditto Monte Cassino, ditto Saddam and his trick of putting HQs under hospitals. Hello, Geneva Conventions! Of course during the Cold War, the Communists had all this information and they knew they had it, but it was Cold War. Why should they release it? For sale. Soap box. One careful owner. Oops wrong forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 As an aside it is nice in some ways to see that Peter Jackson is definitely going to remake the Dam Busters adding much of the technical stuff they were not allowed to use in the original. He's even going to keep Eric Coates music - but the dog is now Trigger. I sat here with a bloke who has always loved the original film, but had never heard of Guy Gibson and tried to explain to him that Gibson was only 26 when he died. Not 40! He found it hard to believe. This started a debate about who could play the role. Good question. So, if you;ve got an RAF WW2 motor, time to get it spruced up for film work!! I loved the original film and have read several 617sdrn related books, so this is a bit special for me. Those men were amazing. Bless them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest matt Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 - but the dog is now Trigger. I give up :roll:. Next there will be a call to change the name on the dog's grave to please the PC crowd. I agree Snapper,all the men of Bomber Command were special. Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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