photo second opinion

[Runflat]

Good ID on the Argyll, Richard. Some more web images here:

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/3423123/Hulton-Archive?language=en-GB&location=GBR

http://www.chrishodgephotos.co.uk/pixv/argyll%20lorry.jpg

[vintary]

argyll looks right

[vintary]

There were in fact at least five Lorrys supplied by Guinness in the 1916 Dublin risings and all five would appear to be Daimlers. I welcome any futher information on these impresssive lorry's.

 

http://improvisedmilitaryvehicles.blogspot.com/

[johnny_doyle]

The first use of motor vehicles by Guinness lasted from 1899 to 1903. Motors then came back into use in 1909 with the purchase of a number of Straker Squires. 1 driver (a Mr Crouch) transferred to Guinness with the purchase of the lorrries. As at 27/1/1914, 7 Milnes Daimler drivers were working for Guinness (starting 8/11/1913). Henry Ledwidge transferred from the Engineering Dept at Guinness in June 1909 as the first Guinness driver on probation. Ledwidge, Foreman Driver, died in 1917 and there is a note re a patent of his re "Improvements in couplings for road vehicles"

 

From the Guinness archives :

On the 6th March 1915, Captain A E Beattie, ASC, inspected 2 Leyland cars and the Commer car and took them over on behalf of the War Office.

 

The 'cars' were :

 

Leyland 5 ton lorry. Chassis no 1069(or W69)/1352. Manufactured Nov 1913; purchased from Leyland Nov 1913 for £884-0-0. Guinness depreciation value £645-4-9; price offered by Capt Beattie £602

 

Leyland 4 ton lorry. Chassis no X373/1353. Manufactured Nov 1913; purchased from Leyland Nov 1913 for £809-0-0

Guinness depreciation value £590-11-2; price offered by Capt Beattie £560. Described as lorry, no sides.

 

Com(m)er 5 1/2 (6?) ton lorry. Chassis no KC519. Manufactured Oct 1913; purchased Oct 1913 from Messrs Thompson Motor Co, Dublin. for £792. Guinness depreciation value £578-0-2; price offered by Capt Beattie £560. Described as lorry, no sides.

 

3 lorries had earlier been taken from the Liverpool depot but no details available other than cars numbered 11, 12 and 18.

 

An inventory taken at the date, showed 27 cars in Dublin :

 

14 Straker Squires 4 ton cars

4 Milnes Daimler 4 ton cars

3 Milnes Daimler 5 ton cars

2 Milnes Daimler 6 ton cars

1 Leyland 4 ton car

1 Leyland 5 ton car

1 Steam Leyland 6 ton car

1 Commer 6 ton car

 

with a note that cars on order which may be commandeered in factory - 2 Foden Steam Cars expected in middle of April and 6 Foden Steam Cars expected sometime in July. A 9th May 1917 inventory of the steam wagons lists 1 Leyland steam wagon and 6 Foden Steam Wagons plus 11 Straker Squires and 13 Milnes Daimlers. The Straker Squires were offered to the military as the Guinness petrol allowance wasn't enough for the business (2244 gallons per month) and they didn't want to hand over the steam wagons.

 

There had been communications between the ASC and Guinness since the early days of the war. Guinness provided the list of their drivers and their sizes so that uniforms could be made and kept on hand should they need to be taken into the army. Arrangements were made in conjunction with Colonel Collard in Dec 1914/Jan 1915 re "providing motor lorries day or night in the event of a national emergency".

 

14 petrol lorries and 3 Foden steam wagons from Guinness were taken by the military on the first day of the Easter Rising (24th April 1916). All but 2 lorries were returned on the 15th May - the 2 kept behind with their drivers (Joseph Armstrong and Daniel Prior) were working for the Royal Army Medical Corps unit stationed at Portobello Barracks. Total mileage of 3800 is recorded for the vehicles; 104 gallons of petrol and 65 bags of coal were handed to the military. 33 Guinness drivers received a letter from General Maxwell and a £15 bonus each from Guinness. Armstrong and Prior also received a note of thanks from Major Balch, RAMC.

 

A note from the Wednesday of the Rising, states that Major Deasy rang on that day (26th April 1916) enquiring about what would be the terms under which motor cars could be converted into armoured cars. Consent was given by A E Guinness on the condition that the cars were returned in a fit state and this was telephoned to Major Deasy in the afternoon.

 

Some of the Straker Squire and Milnes Daimler lorries were commandered by 615 MT Company ASC from 17th April 1918 to 12th June 1918 and there are details of the wear and tear, missing items and repairs undertaken on their return to Guinness.

 

There was an attempt to use Guinness lorries in the construction of Baldonnel aerodrome for the Royal Flying Corps in 1917 due to shortages of vehicles but this was resisted. The Irish Automobile Club had been looking to use a Guinness lorry from June 1915 as part of an effort to train/test motor drivers for the army.

 

Also in the Guinness archive is a pamphlet labelled "War Department Scheme for Motor Lorries" which appears to be pre WW1. Drawings are also stored. The Guinness lorries of 1914 didn't meet the specifications of the scheme.

 

So far, the only registrations I've found in any of the Guinness documents are RI 2585, RI 2588 and RI 2589 which were 3 of the lorries taken in April 1918.

[johnny_doyle]

 

other views of the armoured cars. The image above is from a film; the photo below is by Dublin photographer Joseph Cashman. Can't see registration numbers or anything showing the name Guinness.

 

[Old Bill]

Amazing information, Johnny. Thank you very much for sharing it with us.

 

Steve

[johnny_doyle]

another picture and a letter that relate to the production of the armoured vehicles which hopefully are of interest

 

http://photogallery.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/displayimage.php?pid=43&fullsize=1

 

http://photogallery.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/displayimage.php?pid=39&fullsize=1

[mtskull]

That is absolutely fascinating!

 

Ok, this is a bit off topic, but of further interest to somebody with an interest in railways as well as MV's is the locomotive in the background, which is one of a number of 2-2-2 locomotives supplied to the Great Southern and Western Railway in 1847 by Bury, Curtis & Kennedy of Liverpool. These were withdrawn in 1874, so it would seem likely that this is No. 36, which was preserved and is currently on display at Cork Kent railway station.

 

I'll get my coat...:nut:

[Minesweeper]

That is absolutely fascinating!

 

 

I'll get my coat...:nut:

 

Don't do that - all very interesting!

 

Tony

[Old Bill]

Brilliant!

 

I knew somebody would know what it was!

 

Steve

[Richard Peskett]

Well done Johnny, some good research material. Motor Traction for 1913 runs a regular series ' Motor Transport Developments in Ireland' and the issue of November 8th covers 'The Dublin Transport Crisis' in detail regarding the transport workers strike. Straker-Squire enjoyed good sales through their Dublin sole agents Ashenhurst, Williams and Co. The Guinness Daimlers are in fact Milnes-Daimlers, built at Marienfelde, Berlin, the Daimler name was retained for commercial vehicles following adoption of the 'Mercedes' trading name . G.F.Milnes obtained sole selling rights in GB and the British Empire selling under the Milnes-Daimler name, nothing to do with the Coventrey manufacturer. Ironically some of the first ASC lorries were German built Milnes-Daimlers.

Richard Peskett.

[johnny_doyle]

a postcard/photo on ebay showing a Guinness lorry is labelled as a Daimler 1909

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Daimler-old-Guinness-brewer-truck-1909-picture-17x13-inches-/221149760300?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&nma=true&si=0dV8SF6%2B8C8aA70uN%2BD7NmvTl%2B8%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

I'm sure I've seen a side view of this picture labelling the vehicle as a Straker Squire but I understand that the Straker vehicles had a company logo displayed prominently on the top of the front radiator area. Any thoughts - is this a Daimler or a Straker?

 

I'm keen to track down a copy of Irish Motor Directory booklets covering Dublin 1909 onwards. Anyone know of a copy that's available for inspection?

[Runflat]

It's a Milnes-Daimler.

[johnny_doyle]

It's a Milnes-Daimler.

thanks for that.

[Runflat]

Beg pardon, it's a Staker-Squire! :red:

[Roy Larkin]

Ironically some of the first ASC lorries were German built Milnes-Daimlers.

Richard Peskett.

 

Richard,

 

I'm not so sure. Certainly every reference I've seen in books and magazine/journal articles has the ASC Daimlers as Milnes-Daimlers, which as you say would be the Daimler Marienfelds from the Marienfeld factory just outside Berlin. However, every reference to them in ASC records refers to them as Daimler-Neustadts, which were built at the Neustadt factory just outside Vienna.

 

Whether Milnes supplied them, or whether it was assumed that they had because they looked the same, or whether the government bought them direct from Daimler isn't clear, but I have found no instance of them being referred to as Milnes-Daimlers, only Daimler-Neustadts.

[Richard Peskett]

I agree its a a Straker-Squire, picture herewith of ( I think ) RI 1727, Motor Traction December 1911. In addition to my previous note, Motor Traction also ran a series ' Motor Traction in Ireland ' starting June 1911. With reference to Roys comments we are straying !, I will start a new thread ' Early ASC motor lorries'

 

 

Richard Peskett.

[johnny_doyle]

thanks for this photo. Why I asked the original question was that the photo was being dated 1909 which, if a Milnes-Daimler, didn't tally with the notes I'd got from Guinness but I can't see a Straker Squires logo.

 

A letter to Colonel Collard, ASC, dated 16th Dec 1914 lists 16 Straker Squires, 35hp, capable of carrying 4 tons; these were the subject of an earlier request by the military (8/11/1914 and 8/12/1914) for 16 x 3 ton lorries for use in case of an emergency in Ireland only.

 

As at 9th May 1917, Guinness had 11 Straker Squires left (8 valued at £30 and 3 at £40) and 13 Milnes-Daimlers and appeared happy to give the military the Straker Squires but not the Milnes-Daimlers (or the steam wagons)

 

Guinness appeared to use a numbering system for their vehicles. A note dated 18th April 1918 has

 

No 2 4 ton Straker Squire valued at £20 (after recent overhaul and paint)

No 4 4 ton Straker Squires valued at £20 (after recent overhaul and paint)

No 23 4 ton Milnes Daimler valued at £87-18-11

No 28 4 ton Milnes Daimler valued at £94-13-11

 

3 Guinness lorries in Liverpool (no's 11, 12 and 13) had been requisitioned by the military in August 1914.

 

In Oct 1913, the Dublin office had a list of drivers, their numbers, date they entered service, date appointed as a driver, and wage per week. (All Straker Squires drivers I'm assuming)

 

8471 Ledwidge, Henry 18/10/99 14/06/09 49/-

8420 Fleming, James 1/9/99 11/10/09 37/-

7637 Dunne, John 3/9/96 8/8/10 35/-

10690 Hilton, L(onie) 10/02/04 27/12/09 32/- (served during WW1, Royal Navy)

7185 Dillon, William 23/09/95 28/7/09 33/-

7496 Prior, Daniel 8/9/98 11/10/09 33/-

 

Other drivers were appointed

25/04/10 x 1

13/3/11 x 2

1/11/11 x 2

24/1/12 x 2

22/3/12 x1

10/5/12 x2

13/9/12 x2

15/11/12 x 3

 

As at 27/1/1914 the following Milnes-Daimler drivers were working at Guinness with their join date :

 

F Page 8/11/13

C Frisby 8/11/13

R Moon 8/11/13

J Sassiene 12/11/13

H Francis 12/11/13

P Green 12/11/13

G Taylor 19/11/13

 

Guinness appears to have hired tyres from Dunlop at 1 1/4 pence per mile.