Ferret battery/electric problem

[Ken Wales]

I drove my Ferret to get its roadworthy inspection, travelled about two miles no problem. Left it there about 8.30 in morning, The Ferret was not touched until about 17.30 when the garage owner started it so he could move it under cover i.e. nine hours at rest. Started O.K. but just reversing and then driving forward he could smell battery fumes, I think he turned the engine off (or it might have died) and on investigating found the left battery extremely hot and battery was venting acidic fumes ( one terminal connection was slightly loose). Right hand battery appeared normal. After a time break he attached a power pack in place of the hot battery but all the electrics dead (just possible the power pack may not have had a charge in it).

An electrician is going to look at but any suggestions of what the problem is would be gratefully accepted. It appears to have occurred in a period of a minute or two as that is the time he was driving it.

Some potential ideas could be.

· Regulator putting out too much charge, but then why not both batteries showing symptoms.

· Short in battery itself.

· For some reason while the Ferret was at rest something was happening to the battery.

· Battery terminal being loose caused arcing during day.

 

Why are the electrics dead is there a fuse/contact breaker to look at?

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

Ken

[griff66]

get batts charged up and take it from there

[fv1609]

is there a fuse/contact breaker to look at?

Yes the Distribution Box No.1 Mk 1 (that houses the inter-vehicle starting socket) has 2 thermal cut outs. These usually recover after a minor incident.

 

10A supplies instrument panel & ignition coil but starter switch & solenoid are unprotected.

30A supplies lighting & horn

 

Depends on your Generator if you have the original 2-speed dynamo Generator No.2 there are 5A & 25A fuses in the Gen Panel No.2. But these only effect charging. If you have the 90A system with Generator No.10 it is unfused.

 

If there was an incident with just the one battery I hope it wasn't because of some non-original wiring in order to tap off 12v to run some gadget & this wiring/gadget shorted out.

Edited January 18, 2011 by fv1609

[Diana and Jackie]

Hi,

 

The two batteries are wired in series to give 24 volts. So its to be expected that one battery will behave in the same manner as the other.

 

My guess is a short circuit to chassis on the link cable between the batteries, OR an faulty battery (internal short).

 

We completely renewed the battery cables on our Ferret with welding cable from TCL and new snap on connectors with insulated tops. Our starting problems immediately dissapeared, and we felt a lot safer.

 

The thought of an exploding battery near a fuel tank is a nightmare scenerio.

 

Please let us all know what the fault was.

 

D & J

[Ken Wales]

Many thanks to you all for the help.

 

Current situation once a fully charged battery pack attached the electrics came back on line (almost certain thermal cut out was why electrics not working yesterday) . However on trying to start there was a click from the starter motor (solenoid? sorry but am not very good with electrics) but the engine did not turn. The battery pack power was not being used to any great extent so the suspicion is there is a problem with the other battery. Plan is to put in two new batteries in and see what happens. I will keep you posted.

[Ken Wales]

Latest

 

One new battery left side and one power pack right side (as no other battery available) starter still clicks.

 

Wondering whether initial problem could have been starter motor???? Any thoughts please.

 

Await further

 

Ken

[Toolman]

Hello Ken

 

If it's a loud click coming from the starter motor then it does sound like the solenoid could be at fault. My solonoid clicks about 1 in every 10 crank attempts, however the next time I try it it's ok. Have you chack the voltage of the 2 batterys, i.e, are you getting 24v+ on the left hand + battery terminal to ground ?

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Ken Wales]

Apparently it is the starter motor. They tested voltage at starter and got 24 volts plus there was some sparking coming from motor when they tapped it trying to see if they could free it. B*****r. I have read the threads re removing starter motor and have given that to mechanic who is also not happy having looked at the job. Presume starter can be repaired or where can I source a working starter motor. Other issue is they have to move ferret from where it is parked and they have tried pushing but cannot get it to move ( how many people does it need to move one Ferret on level ground). Trying starting handle tomorrow.

[ferrettkitt]

Apparently it is the starter motor. They tested voltage at starter and got 24 volts plus there was some sparking coming from motor when they tapped it trying to see if they could free it. B*****r. I have read the threads re removing starter motor and have given that to mechanic who is also not happy having looked at the job. Presume starter can be repaired or where can I source a working starter motor. Other issue is they have to move ferret from where it is parked and they have tried pushing but cannot get it to move ( how many people does it need to move one Ferret on level ground). Trying starting handle tomorrow.

 

This should do the trick

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190492210705&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_768wt_1139

 

and this one

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Daimler-Ferret-Starter-Motor-B60-Rolls-Royce-/170591442030?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Vehicle_Parts_Accessories_ET&hash=item27b80ad46e#ht_500wt_1156

 

Try turning the engine on the starter handle if it turns over its not stuck on the ring gear around the fluid flywheel.

 

You should be able to start it on the staring handle

[fv1609]

Ken I have a new one. Of those two advertised the first one looks a bit grubby if you zoom in on the teeth they look maybe a bit worn & the second one is stated to be used. If you want the peace of mind of a new one it is £75. It is collect only, it is in Reading at the moment which is why I can't show you a photo, or I can bring it back to Salisbury at the weekend.

[ferrettkitt]

Ken I have a new one. Of those two advertised the first one looks a bit grubby if you zoom in on the teeth they look maybe a bit worn & the second one is stated to be used. If you want the peace of mind of a new one it is £75. It is collect only, it is in Reading at the moment which is why I can't show you a photo, or I can bring it back to Salisbury at the weekend.

 

Its a job that that really only wants to be done once especially as its such a pain in the proverbial to get at. £75 is a good price

[griff66]

have a go at changing it yourself 4 people should be able to move it easily me and my bruv moved mine back and forth whilst greasing rear prop u/js and that was on gravel. have started mine a few times with starter handle

Edited January 21, 2011 by griff66

[Ken Wales]

Ken I have a new one. Of those two advertised the first one looks a bit grubby if you zoom in on the teeth they look maybe a bit worn & the second one is stated to be used. If you want the peace of mind of a new one it is £75. It is collect only, it is in Reading at the moment which is why I can't show you a photo, or I can bring it back to Salisbury at the weekend.

 

Would love to buy, only problem I am in Australia, no chance of sending here? I know cost would be high but it would be worth it to me. I still have UK bank account so I could transfer funds. My direct e mail is:

 

jayne_ken@hotmail.com that is jayne underscore ken @hotmail.com sorry but computer loves putting underlining right across E Mail address.

[fv1609]

Ken make sure you relieve the tension on both screws on each of the main terminals.

 

[ferrettkitt]

A crated starter box weighs 25 kg so it wouldn't be cheap.

[Ken Wales]

Thanks for letting me know weight which a bit more than I thought. However needs must and Fedex could do but expensive. So I am still looking for one.

[Chrisg]

is the same as on a Champ?

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks for letting me know weight which a bit more than I thought. However needs must and Fedex could do but expensive. So I am still looking for one.

 

Hi Ken,

 

Have you tried Tim Vibert in Victoria? He has stock of some Ferret and Rolls engine parts. His website is www.timvibert.com.au

 

regards, Richard

[fv1609]

is the same as on a Champ?

 

Yes Chris.

[Chrisg]

OK pm sent regarding another contact in Australia

[ferrettkitt]

A silly thought wouldn't it be possible to have the motor rebuilt? I know that somewhere in Urmston (Manchester) someone was prepared to rebuild dynamos.

[Ken Wales]

Have located one in Australia from Empire Trading (Tim). Awaiting final costings. Re rebuild, possibly option but I want to get on road ASAP and this seemed quickest option.

 

Many thanks for all the advice very much appreciated.

[Ken Wales]

New starter installed, checked before installation and appeared OK. Garage managed to get the starter motor in without removing any major items. Old starter motor appeared to have an internal problem but not actually confirmed. New batteries installed. However on trying to start the solenoid just clicks. Engine turns freely on starting handle so starter motor not engaged. Electrician going to look at but garage believes 24 volts getting to starter motor and believes there maybe a bad connection. Any brilliant ideas of what could be causing problem, has original problem with batterry overheating caused further damage??????

[fv1609]

Ken this is as perplexing as it is infuriating for you!

 

When you say it was checked before it was fitted, how was that done? Just with an ohmmeter or did you actually run it up & see if it worked fully? A few years ago I decided to check the 9 starters I had. All of them passed on an ohmmeter but only 4 actually ran up properly. Those that failed were nice looking ones I bought from nice looking people who said they were take-offs or thought they worked the last time they were used. But I suppose I was also seduced by the silvering on the terminals & the nice paint.

 

Whilst it is in situ I would suggest these tests.

 

Put a voltmeter across both batteries & check that it still reads 24v when you try to start it. If it still gives 24v the batteries are ok. If not one of the batteries is at fault. Connect a voltmeter across each in turn & check if 12v is still maintained on starting. If not that is your defective battery.

 

To check the link cable between the batteries put a voltmeter on the terminals (not the link cable) there should be no reading & none when you engage the starter. If there is a flicker of the needle (yes needle I would recommend an analogue meter, not a digital one which I find usually adds confusion that you don't get with an analogue!) go to a lower range & see that it should be virtually zero or no more than a fraction of a volt. If there is more than that there is some high resistance defect in that link cable/connectors.

 

Unless you have added an isolating switch, the battery supply comes via heavy duty cable to the starter. The fact that the –ve supply happens to be earth is not directly important here as the starter gets its supply in this independent way.

 

Check that 24v is being delivered to the starter terminals. Check also that this voltage is still there when you try to start. You might expect this to loose a few volts as the starter runs.

 

If there is no voltage reduction & you can hear & feel the solenoid clicking when you feel the case you have a defective starter motor.

 

If the voltage drops by more than a few volts there is a high resistance in the battery feeds (by high I mean it is higher than it should be bearing in mind something like 75-100 amps should be drawn, even 0.25 ohms could be significant & measuring that sort of resistance on a meter is problematic)

 

To test which cable is at fault. DO THIS WITH THE CABLES STILL CONNECTED Connect the -ve of the voltmeter to the -ve battery terminal & the + ve to the starter –ve terminal. If there is a drop of more than a couple of volts then the –ve supply cable is at fault.

 

Repeat this for the other cable. DO THIS WITH THE CABLES STILL CONNECTED Connect the +ve of the voltmeter to the +ve battery terminal & the - ve to the starter +ve terminal. If there is a drop of more than a couple of volts then the +ve supply cable is at fault.

 

However the +ve supply goes via the intervehicle starter socket box. Put the +ve prod of the voltmeter on the input terminal B+ & the –ve prod on the output S+. When you start up there should be barely any voltage measured. If there is reading of several volts or worse there is defect in the terminals or connectors. Although there are two thermal cut-outs inside they have no part to play in the direct supply to the starter.

 

If you have an isolating switch making sure it is switched on repeat the above test making sure there is no voltage drop, implying a high internal resistance or poor connections.

 

I’ve assumed that there is sufficient voltage to make the starter solenoid click. To ensure that this is adequate to make it fully engage, put the voltmeter –ve prod to chassis & the +ve to the SOL terminal inside the ignition junction box & check that is 24v when you try to start. If that is ok undo the cover of the plug that feed directly into the starter & measure it on B & make sure there is 24v when you try to start & when it is plugged into the starter.

 

Remember if there is even 0.25 ohms in the starter supply cable system it is sufficient to cause problems. Buzzer or ohmmeter continuity checks are of little value in assessing the performance of the cables when significant current is being drawn.

[AndyFowler]

Wow :wow: Clive a very comprehesive answer ! I think I'll print it off for future reference in case my Pig should ever mess about ! Great to have such help from the friendly forum !

[fv1609]

Andy yes that took nearly 1.5 hours! I write rather slowly & then it has to be re-written because of the dyslexia.

 

Certain problems I can feel for people's anguish & frustration. Places we have all been. An external observer can sometimes be more analytical & cautious at making assumptions that such & such is ok, when perhaps it isn't.

 

Awful as these experiences are for an owner it can unravel like a good detective story because one can be led to make assumptions that aren't really valid on the evidence presented!