1968 Pattern Combat Smock Variants

[Eaglehurst]

Very recently I have picked up a couple of 68 pattern jackets but with interesting NSN numbers.

 

The standard NSN numbering system for the 'Smock Combat (1968 Pattern)' or 'Smock Mans Combat' is 8405 99 132 1821 for a size 1 smock up to 8405 99 132 1829 for a Size 9.

 

The two most recent acquisitions have the following numbers and descriptions:

8405 99 132 6086 'Smock Combat (1968 Pattern)' - a size 8

8405 99 132 6079 'Smock Combat' - a size 1

 

Both seem identical to the 68 pattern in every way except for the NSN numbers.

 

Does anyone have an idea as to what variant of the 68 pattern this may be? Is it, perhaps, specifically made and supplied to Ghurkas?

 

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated....

[ArtistsRifles]

Very recently I have picked up a couple of 68 pattern jackets but with interesting NSN numbers.

 

The standard NSN numbering system for the 'Smock Combat (1968 Pattern)' or 'Smock Mans Combat' is 8405 99 132 1821 for a size 1 smock up to 8405 99 132 1829 for a Size 9.

 

The two most recent acquisitions have the following numbers and descriptions:

8405 99 132 6086 'Smock Combat (1968 Pattern)' - a size 8

8405 99 132 6079 'Smock Combat' - a size 1

 

Both seem identical to the 68 pattern in every way except for the NSN numbers.

 

Does anyone have an idea as to what variant of the 68 pattern this may be? Is it, perhaps, specifically made and supplied to Ghurkas?

 

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated....

 

There was a smock issued only to SAS/SBS units - lightweight, windproof with an attached (sewn on) hood - maybe these???

[Eaglehurst]

No Neil - these are definitely 68 pattern in everything but name. Just can't work out why they have different NSNs....

[airportable]

Intresting thread this. Caused me to rummage through foot locker.

I have a 68'ptn smock No, 8415-99-132-1821....?? size 1

Made by Cookson & Clegg Ltd.

Identical to my 8405's etc. except in the zip and slight colouring.

Made by Norsel Textiles Ltd.

Andy.

Just had another root, my 85ptn start off 8415. Im even more confused.

[chevpol]

Intresting thread this. Caused me to rummage through foot locker.

I have a 68'ptn smock No, 8415-99-132-1821....?? size 1

Made by Cookson & Clegg Ltd.

Identical to my 8405's etc. except in the zip and slight colouring.

Made by Norsel Textiles Ltd.

Andy.

Just had another root, my 85ptn start off 8415. Im even more confused.

 

my size 8 and 9 start off 8405 (I hate people who can get into smaller!!!), my 85 pattern starts off 8415

 

Mark

[fv1609]

This is from a 1992 COSA Section CM. I'm afraid it doesn't cover the NSNs in question but you can see the way in which size effects codification,

 

[Eaglehurst]

Thanks Clive - that is helpful. Here is a list of what I have in terms of NSNs for variants.

 

The more digging I do the more I think the differing NSNs on the 68 patts I have are Ghurkha related. Would love to know why.....

Uniform 1950 - 2010 NSN and descriptions.pdf

[Eaglehurst]

Intresting thread this. Caused me to rummage through foot locker.

I have a 68'ptn smock No, 8415-99-132-1821....?? size 1

Made by Cookson & Clegg Ltd.

Identical to my 8405's etc. except in the zip and slight colouring.

Made by Norsel Textiles Ltd.

Andy.

Just had another root, my 85ptn start off 8415. Im even more confused.

 

I think the 8405 transition to the 8415 numbering is age related. Can't pinpoint exactly but at some point in the 70's (maybe early 80's) the digit changed. Anything physically manufactured after that, even older pattern gear, got the new 8415 designation.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Eaglehurst

[AlienFTM]

I think the 8405 transition to the 8415 numbering is age related. Can't pinpoint exactly but at some point in the 70's (maybe early 80's) the digit changed. Anything physically manufactured after that, even older pattern gear, got the new 8415 designation.

 

ISTR things like lightweights, aside from the NSN, could be ordered by a size rendered as a single serial number, like maybe 75 rings a bell as fitting me perfectly ("Army uniform fits you perfectly? You are a freak, Trooper Alien."). Then one day around 1980 I went to exchange a pair and the sizing system had all changed and I could never again get lightweights that fitted me so well. Quite likely the two are related.

[fv1609]

I think the 8405 transition to the 8415 numbering is age related. Can't pinpoint exactly but at some point in the 70's (maybe early 80's) the digit changed. Anything physically manufactured after that, even older pattern gear, got the new 8415 designation.

 

The NSC Group is related to function rather than age.

 

8405 Outwear, men's

8410 Outwear, women's

8415 Clothing, special purpose

 

There is a typo in the list 8406 is unallocated.

[Eaglehurst]

The NSC Group is related to function rather than age.

 

8405 Outwear, men's

8410 Outwear, women's

8415 Clothing, special purpose

 

There is a typo in the list 8406 is unallocated.

 

Ahh - thanks Clive - very helpful. And the typo in the list relates to the dangers of using 'drag and copy' in excel!!

 

Seems strange that Airportable's 68 pattern changes from 8405 to 8415. Must be another variant of smock??

 

And the 68 pattern smock is considered 'Outerwear, men's' whereas the 85 pattern smock is 'Clothing, special purpose'. To be honest though the only thing special about the 85 pattern was it's ability to fall apart.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Eaglehurst

[Eaglehurst]

This is from a 1992 COSA Section CM. I'm afraid it doesn't cover the NSNs in question but you can see the way in which size effects codification,

 

 

 

Clive - if you have any more of the above could you PM it over to me please? Appreciate it does not cover the 68 pattern but I would appreciate any additional detail on NSN's for Brit clothing in general.

[fv1609]

The problem is I only have got 8415 as that COSA Section CM covers just cold climate clothing. The other clothing sections I have (CF, CN & CV) do not cover what you are after. We need sections like CC & CG.

 

I have a near complete set of Clothing Regulations 1951 that of course predates NATO codification. But it does make mention of:

Smocks, khaki, windproof

Smocks, butchers

Smocks, Denison

Smocks, P.T.

 

To see a VAOS of the time would be interesting for a definitive list. Although the Regs are quite interesting as they give the scale of issue to different types of unit & indeed for different classes of vehicle. Most intriguing of all I suppose is the issue of 6 Jackets, serge, unlined (blue) for troop ships.

 

If you have some NSNs I can look them up, but to get detail I need to cross refer to microfiche & that is a lengthy business. (VAOS = Vocabulary of Army Ordnance Stores which after NATO Codification was superceded by COSA = Catalogue of Ordnance Stores & Ammunition)

[ArtistsRifles]

No Neil - these are definitely 68 pattern in everything but name. Just can't work out why they have different NSNs....

 

The windproof ones we has in 21 were 68 pattern - other than the fact they were a lighter weight and had a sewn on hood the zips, buttons and patern of DPM was the same as a normal 68 pattern one.

 

It was just a thought !!

[airportable]

The windproof ones we has in 21 were 68 pattern - other than the fact they were a lighter weight and had a sewn on hood the zips, buttons and patern of DPM was the same as a normal 68 pattern one.

 

It was just a thought !!

Dont know if of any intrest but I have one of these 'SAS' smocks. Sadly the lable is missing and quite worn. but they can not be mistaken, the 'feel' of the fabric is 'odd' As thread states, sewn in hood, rolls up and secured with a tab and button. All buttons very large, sewn in large pattern poly zip.Still have a 'bum' pocket.

Mine has been modified with a later extension to the arms with a para type cuff, very well done. Off subject but could post pic. if of intrest.

Andy.

[airportable]

Ahh - thanks Clive - very helpful. And the typo in the list relates to the dangers of using 'drag and copy' in excel!!

 

Seems strange that Airportable's 68 pattern changes from 8405 to 8415. Must be another variant of smock??

Hi, had another look at my smocks, can find no differences at all apart from the slight colour, maker and zip.

Andy.

[airportable]

Clive - if you have any more of the above could you PM it over to me please? Appreciate it does not cover the 68 pattern but I would appreciate any additional detail on NSN's for Brit clothing in general.

Hi folks, why not post it!! All intresting stuff, I'm also intrested.

Andy.

[Eaglehurst]

Dont know if of any intrest but I have one of these 'SAS' smocks. Sadly the lable is missing and quite worn. but they can not be mistaken, the 'feel' of the fabric is 'odd' As thread states, sewn in hood, rolls up and secured with a tab and button. All buttons very large, sewn in large pattern poly zip.Still have a 'bum' pocket.

Mine has been modified with a later extension to the arms with a para type cuff, very well done. Off subject but could post pic. if of intrest.

Andy.

 

Andy - does it look anything like this? 'Odd' is exactly what I thought about the fabric....almost like the feel of a well worn wax jacket!

[airportable]

Yes and no. If that makes sence. Well worn wax jacket... yes.

Mine has no right sleeve pocket, hard to discribe but a very distintive 'V' seam from mid top pockets to include back, shoulder yoke and hood. No collar as such, it is all part of the hood.

Will try a pic tomorrow if any help.

Also have the windproof trouser to match,same material.

[airportable]

Foot note, looking at your photo again, sleeves look short, perhaps thats why mine has the para type cuffs sewn in.

[Eaglehurst]

Yes and no. If that makes sence. Well worn wax jacket... yes.

Mine has no right sleeve pocket, hard to discribe but a very distintive 'V' seam from mid top pockets to include back, shoulder yoke and hood. No collar as such, it is all part of the hood.

Will try a pic tomorrow if any help.

Also have the windproof trouser to match,same material.

 

Maybe...just maybe - you have an older pattern style and mine is a later 80's style?? Again this is just a guess....

Edited September 24, 2010 by Eaglehurst

[airportable]

A few pics. of my smock.

[Panzer nut]

Hi Guys

Thanks to this thread you have started me off, checking the NSNs. For 68 pattern i have at least 3 batches of NSNs, considering that 68 pattern was issued from the late 1960's through to the late 1980's. At first I considered different branches . But then I thought as mentioned that it may be different perriods.

I make the following assumptions

NSN 8405-99-973-3931 to 3940 60 Pattern

NSN 8405-99-122-7329 to 7348 60 Pattern in DPM

NSN 8405-99-132-2027 to 2046 68 Pattern

NSN 8405-99-132-6079 to 6099 68 Pattern

NSN 8415-99-132-1821 to 1840 68 Pattern

 

If you notice the 60 pattern in DPM is a smaller number then the normal 60 pattern.

That raises the question of how come?

The 68 pattern now has three numbers, my memory is clouded but I either read some where or was told that 68 Pattern changed around 1974/75 but the pattern was not renamed. Basically staying the same but the material differed in some way and went slightly darker.

 

so are we looking dates or an introductin of new patterns.

Is the second 68 pattern NSN a supersession number because of the maufactoring modifications?

The third I suspect like many other a 80's thing.

Looking at the 8415s some have letters in front. examples CA, CH CG (look in your survive to fight at the uniform sizes? mine is 1983 dated), 1983 was also a big change date for procedures and introduction of new kit (DMS High and MK VI GRPs)

 

Just somethings for you to think about. What we realy need is a dedicated QM to look these up an dm ake a few notes.

 

If you guys have any more information or other NSN lists please contact me, also can you guys start posting more pictures of labels so we cans ee if there is a pattern emerging.

 

Thanks

Jon

[fv1609]

Looking at the 8415s some have letters in front. examples CA, CH CG (look in your survive to fight at the uniform sizes? mine is 1983 dated)

 

Jon these are DMCs (Domestic Management Codes)

 

CA Includes cloth & trimmings

CH Includes waterproof clothing

CG Combat dress

 

Its not unusual for the codification of items to change either as development proceeds or it is realised there is a more appropriate code that should be applied.

 

i.e.the NSC changes (the first 4 digits of the NSN) but the NIIN (the last 9 digits of the NSN) remains the same.

 

Although NSNs are unique there is no conflict with a pre-existing NSC being already allocated. The system allows for such a change by allocating a unique NIIN.

 

(This why you sometimes find an item marked not with the 13-digit NSN but only with the 9-digit NIIN. Although this confers a unique identity it gives no immediate indication as to the general identity of the item. The most common example of this is the marking on the folding chairs many of us use in our 9x9s. Although the lack of a NSC is no impediment to the understanding of item's purpose.)

 

When the NSC changes it often dictates that the DMC has to change as well.

[tim gray]

Having done pennance in the clothing store whilst serving the querry as to specific part numbers for Gurkhas would only apply if the item was a specific issue item to them as in the slouch hat/ kukri and scabbard

 

The "scale" of issue to them is different and often larger in QTY than UK troops but the actuall items are identical less of course the size as they tend to be more compact chaps.

 

The right hand column of the clothing cosa,s are interesting as they are not only decriptive but also indicate genrally the specific entitlement.

 

Some entitlements can be changed as a result of specific operations or other requirements but they are generally specific to that time and when officially over the soldier may have them for use and on his 1157 but when worn out hes got no chance of replacing them.

 

"Cap Kilmarnock" for instance is for bandsmen in general, with some ceromonial uses. This is explained in the r/h column, inclusive of what coloured wooly boble goes on the top.

 

Fully concure that NSN,S can change as a result of a change in the contract, the item may not have changed in a visual sense but changes thier have been. For instance changes to the weave or weft of the fabric, stiches per inch, double or single stiched seams ???? Lots of things that your average squady would not even notice except of course when he is issued "combats fall apart"

 

Regards

 

Tim

Edited January 11, 2011 by tim gray