Eaglehurst Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Yes Jon - I have a couple of the jackets and trousers...scarily enough in a size that fits me! Size 6 smock and trousers! Really well made and a true testament to when Brits ruled the world in quality clothing manufacture. It is basically an off shoot of US kit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Thanks for the pictures, By looks of it the 60 pattern is exactly the same except for the label and possible material used. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) No problem Jon. The differences as I see them are as follows: Smock: - Wrap around elbow reinforcement (the 60 pattern had these until about 63 when they changed to ovals) - Different colour buttons - Different material - sateen - Different label Trousers: - Button and zip fly rather than the zip only of the 60 pattern - Zipper is double ended so you can zip from bottom or top rather than just the single zip pull of the 60 pattern - Different materials - sateen - Different colour buttons - Different label: So, as you say, minor cosmetic differences mainly.... Edited February 18, 2011 by Eaglehurst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Wow - just re-read my last post...I really do need to get out more often! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airportable Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Just thought I would add a pic. of a label stiched into a smock picked up Sun. (one of five, all slightly dif. 68ptn's) Three appear never to have been worn and in mint condition. Quick look, a couple still have this type of label, printed stamps on the linings and some sort of chalk/crayon markings on the 'care' label. Again, a quick look at the trousers still show signs of taylors chalk marks for stiching etc. Had a go, but my camera does not pick up these other markings. Two came with hoods. It has been sugested that one may be a RAF Reg. version? Another a Belfast version due to colouring. May be of intrest. Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 Thanks Andy - would be interested to see a few photos of the other labels from this garment, as well as the smock labels from the other examples you picked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 You often find small white cloth manufacturers tags attached to various parts of the 1968 pattern combat smock and trousers (usually found inside pockets, crutch flaps, etc)....they were used by the manufacturer to assemble a particular size garment during mass production.....the paper tag, however, is unusual..... It should be noted that the "1968 pattern" designation only applies to combat suit production from 1971 to around 1977-78. The "68 pattern" garments were made from cotton-sateen material and during 77-78 this was replaced by an improved semi-synthetic cotton-modal fabric (field-tested between April 1974 and 1976 in Germany and Northern Ireland). Concerns had been raised at the durability and shrink-resistance of the cotton-sateen fabric together with its weight when wet and in hot weather conditions.... The NATO stock number for both the smock and trouser was changed at this time to reflect the new version made from the newer material, the "1968 pattern" designation also being dropped from the labelling and official references.....this improved combat suit lasted until 1984 when replaced by another model. During 1981-82 the trousers were lightly revised to incorporate a better lining and attachment method, plus an extra belt loop was added at the rear to make up 6 instead of 5 on the earlier version.... It is wise never to date a DPM garment by the cammo pattern....some manufacturers continued to make garments in older fabrics to use up stocks, and the various DPM patterns and colours encountered a generally manufacturer variations and not indicative of date of production.......I have several garments in the collection that are of post-1977-78 production in the newer material and with the later NSN coding but on first glance would appear to be the earlier "68 pattern" simply due to the DPM cammo patterning and colour.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airportable Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Thanks Andy - would be interested to see a few photos of the other labels from this garment, Thanks to the wdbikemad post I have just turned this smock inside out, found labels in sleeve, crotch strap. Will take pics of all if of intrest. But bear with me, got to get sorted for Stafford event/ex Mil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 If it is of any help to anyone out there, any smock or trouser with "1968 pattern" on the label and a NSN beginning with "8405" is a 1971 to 77/78 production in cotton-sateen..... If not carrying the "1968 designation" (though this was not always applied to labels) AND a NSN beginning with "8415" then it's 1977/78 to 83/84 production in either (old stock) cotton-sateen or cotton-modal (semi-synthetic fibre)...... The 1974 - 76 troop-trial combat suits were described as made in "cotton-vincel" but it is thought that this may simply be an alternative description to cotton-modal...:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Interesting - I have several examples of the 68 pattern without the '68' designation but none of them have the 8415 prefix. What I do have is a couple of examples of 68 pattern with the last 4 digits 6079 (size 1) to 6087 (size 9). One of them, a size 8, has the designation 'G8 (Size 8) for size. I wondered if this was a specific model for Gurkhas..... Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Label from Gurkha specific 1968 Pattern: As per previous post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Interesting - I have several examples of the 68 pattern without the '68' designation but none of them have the 8415 prefix. What I do have is a couple of examples of 68 pattern with the last 4 digits 6079 (size 1) to 6087 (size 9). One of them, a size 8, has the designation 'G8 (Size 8) for size. I wondered if this was a specific model for Gurkhas..... Thoughts? When the '68 pattern combat suit was introduced during 1971, it was available in Sizes 1 to 9 and "special"....PLUS an additional small size range of Size 01 to 04...... However, another size range appears to have been adopted specifically for Gurkha troops during the early 1970's, running from Size G1 through to G9....... The suit is identical to the normal '68 pattern except for the label which carries the "Gurkha" designation, size, and unique NSN per size...... It would seem that the Gurkha size range was found unnecessary and appears to have been discontinued during the mid-1970's, the size range of standard DPM '68 items being sufficient to fit the majority of troops.......:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Out of interest. Does any one seen or own a 1960 pattern Hood???Ta Jon 1953 olive drab hood used with the 1960 pattern olive AND DPM smock.....1968 pattern DPM hood issued and used with the 1960 pattern DPM smock when introduced during 1972 (later than the smock)...... No specific 1960 pattern hood made in olive or DPM......you will be searching for something that never existed.... British Army QM catalogue Section CG (combat clothing) still lists the DPM '68 pattern hood as available but obsolete during August 1986......same catalogue also lists the olive drab 1953 pattern hood as available (and NOT obsolete !!) in a size 2 only.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Andy - does it look anything like this? 'Odd' is exactly what I thought about the fabric....almost like the feel of a well worn wax jacket! Not certain that this is a MoD-issued item....the label does not appear to carry any contract number reference, together with the fact that it states "SAS", something not applied to garments....(although the SAS reference does feature in the descriptive text for issue to certain units in the MoD combat clothing catalogue Section CG)..... I suspect that this may be a commercial copy from perhaps "Survival Aids", "SASS", etc, some of which feature NSN's to add authenticity......? The original MoD-issue "SAS" windproof smock in DPM was approved and introduced into service during 1975, alongside the matching trousers (the type with the cross-over belt fastened waist)....These garments were made from cotton gaberdine and not in any other material.....The label (and official references) designate the garment "Smock, Windproof, Camouflage" (and "Trousers, Windproof, Camouflage") with no reference on either garment to "SAS"..... The above garments remained on issue and in production until the mid 2000's when replaced by an improved specification..... During production, the only change made was the addition of the small field dressing (?) pocket to the rear of the upper right sleeve around 1984....... Neither garment should be confused with the Arctic Windproof smock and trousers that are of a different specification, especially the trousers....... Some collectors may have come across a rather rare DPM smock, labelled "Smock, Windproof, 1963 Pattern".......this item resembles a WW2 British Army windproof smock in cut, but features a fully opening zip front and is manufactured in DPM cotton sateen..... Made in a size range of 1 to 9, many collectors wrongly assume that this garment actually dates from 1963......the explanation is far more simple, in that when DPM was introduced into the British Army during 1970, production of the windproof smock simply switched over to the new DPM fabric......the "1963 Pattern" designation refers to the full-zip specification in the same way as the "1959 Pattern" Denison smock, and not the actual cammo pattern ! This item remained in production and on issue between 1970 and 1975 when replaced by the gaberdine DPM windproof.....many photos of the early 1970's show SAS and marines wearing this particular garment..... It is not known if any wartime pattern trousers were made to accompany the 1963 pattern DPM smock, but it is possible. However, it is more likely that the item was intended to be worn with the new general issue DPM trousers in both 1960 and 1968 patterns..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 A interesting label for you in a 84 Pat PARA smock, the epualette buttons are Brown. Any thoughts??? Ta Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Jon - I wonder if this may be a commercial copy. Lack of makers name or contract number is what raises suspicion....and believe me when I tell you I have learned the hard way on this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcap Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Sorry, mate, it looks to be a repro. Para smocks are noted as "Smock, Parachutist", on the label, and there will always be a contract number as well, as Eaglehurst mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 A little investigation by myself and airportable leads to the following conclusion. Private purchase item. The Smock is a 1980's comercialy made item available to members of the armed forces. A bit like silvermans...lol So not exactly nod issue but just as good. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 So not exactly nod issue but just as good. Jon From time to time I see examples of Desert DPM Para smock coming up for sale...again not nod issue but same spec as issue kit and they look great. So, in short, yes - there are a bunch of great 'unofficial' bits of kit out there. Jon - would love to have a chat so will try to give you a call one evening soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcap Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Jon - seems to me that from perhaps the mid eighties onwards, maybe as early as the late seventies, there were third-party kit manufacturers making kit to generally preferred troops requirements, not neccesarily the MoDs requirements, eg the SASS kit carry smock of the nineties, and the para smock you appear to have found. Now, while in most cases the labels will bear the makers name, some, like the one you found, seem to go out of their way to try to appear to be 'issue kit', with an NSN and so on; now, I don't know if the one in your example jacket is a made-up NSN or copied off an actual para smock, but you can figure that one out, I'm sure, but it seems that there may, if yours is a classic example, be a fair few of these knocking around, undocumented, and lying in wait for the unwary... might be an idea to see what others you can find, and make notes about them for the rest of us? Just a thought, anyhow :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Roger Your thoughts allways cost me money, do you have any cheaper thoughts... Jon :cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcap Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 LOL, not at the moment, mate, any ideas that I *do* get will, of course, be tested to destruction at this end of the string-and-can line first, to ensure that they work properly :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Jon - seems to me that from perhaps the mid eighties onwards, maybe as early as the late seventies, there were third-party kit manufacturers making kit to generally preferred troops requirements, not neccesarily the MoDs requirements, eg the SASS kit carry smock of the nineties, and the para smock you appear to have found. Now, while in most cases the labels will bear the makers name, some, like the one you found, seem to go out of their way to try to appear to be 'issue kit', with an NSN and so on; now, I don't know if the one in your example jacket is a made-up NSN or copied off an actual para smock, but you can figure that one out, I'm sure, but it seems that there may, if yours is a classic example, be a fair few of these knocking around, undocumented, and lying in wait for the unwary... might be an idea to see what others you can find, and make notes about them for the rest of us? Just a thought, anyhow :nut: Commercial copy....though sometimes made by the same manufacturer as the genuine issue items..... HM Supplies have a shop in Camberley on the London Road, plus a smaller branch in Aldershot........they have a ready market with the Army right on the doorstep.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 AND the NSN is made-up..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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