WW1 Thornycroft restoration

[BSM]

The export of the two "Thornys" in the middle of the Great War to Australia really is quite interesting! Australians took a significant part during the conflict - but I always assumed that any motor vehicles supplied to them were probably given to them when they reached "over here". It would seem unlikely that the lorries would be sent to Australia and then brought back here again!

 

So were these two - and only two in this consignment - sent over perhaps for training or familiarisation purposes - so that Australian forces knew what to expect when they reached Europe?

 

The sort of question that Roy Larkin might be able to answer - if the answer is not available from one of our Australian friends!

 

Tony

 

Tony, not so according to official documents. The first 2 Companies that embarked in December 1914 were not required in Egypt so they moved on to England. They left Australia with MT which included 125 Lorries GS 3ton. 6 (six) of these were early model Thornycroft. In 1915 their broad mix of makes were traded in at Bulford for mainly Peerless before they went to France as the DAP and the DSC for the British 17th Division in July. Not long after they arrived in country the Brits snaffled the new Peerless belonging to the DSC and issued them to a Brit Unit on its way to Salonika. The Aust. DSC were then issued with some very worn Dennis Lorries which they operated until the Homogenity scheme of 1918.

 

Also from a period motoring journal dated the 1st of August 1916 is an image of a Thornycroft engine chassis. Caption says that it arrived with a shipment the month before and that three of the Thornycroft were earmarked for the Military. Total not mentioned. Accounts were kept for all of the MT procured from Imperial sources but that is something you could write pages on so we shall leave it for the time being! Rod

[Minesweeper]

Thanks Rod - most interesting! I am not familiar with the abbreviations "DAP" and "DSC" - can you elaborate for me please?

 

Tony

[BSM]

Thanks Rod - most interesting! I am not familiar with the abbreviations "DAP" and "DSC" - can you elaborate for me please?

 

Tony

 

Tony first off DAP is Divisional Ammunition Park and DSC is Divisional Supply Column and the most expedient to briefly explain the fit is to quote this para from my book...."With the Unit settling in, the O.C. visited the Director of Transport (General Boyce) at G.H.Q. St. Omer where he was informed that the D.A.P.s were to be reorganised into Divisional Sub Parks under a Corps Ammunition Park. This meant that 3 of the workshops, 3 of the stores lorries, approximately half of the G.S. lorries and 2 of the touring cars were to be withdrawn and sent to 2^nd Army Troops Supply Column, St. Omer.

Whilst the O.C. once again pushed the point regarding vehicle ownership with little success initially, he eventually won the day. On his recommendation and with the support of key senior British Officers with whom he had served in the Boer War, a second Australian Unit was created as the 23^rd Division Ammunition Sub Park (known initially by its British ID as the 492^nd Company) from the A.A.S.C., men and vehicles previously sent to the Base Depot at St. Omer when D.A.P.s were reduced to Sub Parks. The transport numbers of the mechanised Supply Columns were not affected by this particular change to the War Establishment for transport in the A.S.C. and A.A.S.C."

 

Lt.Col. Tunbridge (OC DAP) lead the mounted Unit that supported the Brit. Unit in the defence of Elands River in the Boer War so he was well connected. Rod

[Minesweeper]

Obviously a vast and fascinating subject - and I guess that most of us know very little about it. I hope that all the records of it are safe for the benefit of future generations.

 

Tony

[BSM]

Obviously a vast and fascinating subject - and I guess that most of us know very little about it. I hope that all the records of it are safe for the benefit of future generations.

 

Tony

 

Certainly is and to finish this bit off without labouring the point....ADAPs and DSC were combined to form MT Companies in March 1918 and as a matter of note the 4th Australian MT Company operated 83 "J" Model Thornycrofts from that point until return to British Vehicle Recovery Parks in 1919 and a settling of accounts. Not to detract from the main thrust of this thread but referring back to my post re the Dennis lorries transferred to the DSC from a British Unit en route to Salonika.....Michael Young makes a point in his book on the ASC that the British MT Unit supporting the Kiwis (1NZMTC) were less than impressed with the age and condition of the Dennis lorries they inherited in 1918 from the Australians. These were the same lorries issued to the 17th DSC in exchange for their new Peerless in 1915. As they say, what goes around comes around etc!!! It would be fair to say that the Dennis image in your collection would be one of those vehicles which in turn would also date the pic.

We continued to use the type. Attached pic from the period between the Wars taken at Fort Lytton in Brisbane is from the State Library collection. Rod

[Asciidv]

Isn't it about time you put your mince pies down and made your way to your shed? I have been looking every day to see what you have been up to, but there is nothing!

 

Best wishes, Barry.

[Old Bill]

Hi Barry!

 

We haven't been completely idle! We have cleaned up the magneto drive shaft and yesterday, we fitted the cylinder liners (successfully!). However, Tim posts all the pictures but he has limited access to a computer at the moment. Hopefully he will be able to put them up today. We have guests today but tomorrow, we plan to fit the timing gear to the crankshaft and then fit that into the crank case. At last we will be putting things back together!

 

All the best,

 

Steve

Edited December 27, 2012 by Old Bill

[Great War truck]

Please excuse my slow reponse in keeping you updated over the Christmas rebuild period. I have been having computer issues and am now using a borrowed machine and have lots of photos to upload which i will do in small chunks. Anyway, without further delay this is what has been going on.

 

We wanted to do do just one job on Christmas Eve which should not have taken too much time and picked up the Magneto Drive Shaft from where we left off at the end of November. The two Bearings on it were “finished” – one was seized and the other was rattling so they had to be replaced. We only have one Press and that is in Leicester – but we managed to get one Bearing and its collar off here in Devon, just using the vice – but the other would not move – despite some heat treatment – so Steve took the shaft back to Leicester with him when he returned home so that it could be placed under his Press.

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

When he got home, Steve made short work of getting the stubborn bearing off – an easy job using the Press

 

 

 

 

So Steve brought the Shaft back with him to Devon on Christmas Eve – we have the replacement bearings in stock now – but the shaft will have to go back to Leicester so that the new bearings can be pressed on.

 

The magneto coupling is mounted on the end of the shaft, using a pinch bolt. An interesting feature of the shaft is that the thread has been cut around the shaft in which the pinch bolt can engage – thus giving it a positive location but allowing the angle of the coupling to be adjusted to set the timing of the magneto.

 

The thread on the shaft was a little corroded and was firstly cleaned with a wire brush and then a matching tap was used to clean it up using the coupling as a guide for it.

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

Today, we decided to fit the Cylinder Liners – it was a job that had been “earmarked” for the Christmas break! The first task was to clean off any sharp edges on the cylinder blocks so that the insertion of the liners would be unimpaired and to ensure that they would not catch on anything. The first liner was offered “upside down” to the block first of all for a trial fit of just the flange or lip, just to ensure that it would fit into the recess cut into the block for it when it was finally offered up in the final correct position – as it would have be very unpleasant if the flange did not fit into the recess in the block. The liner and the block had to be thoroughly cleaned and de-greased before final fitting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first liner slid into the block fairly easily but it started to tighten up towards the end of its final positioning. It needed a good push to get it fully in and whilst it had been our intention to Loctite it in, we felt it unnecessary with this one as it was such a tight fit – and of course it would be held in position against the crank case in any case!

 

And then it was the same process with the second one

 

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

And then it was just a case of pushing it right in, though we did use Loctite on this one – as although it was a good snug fit, it was not quite as tight as the first one. The liners in their final position stood a thou or two proud of the bottom of the block but would be dressed off later.

 

 

 

 

And then the same process repeated with the first of the two cylinders in the second block. Loctited again.

 

 

 

Dressing off with a file was straight forward and all the work on the blocks is just about completed. The next job this week will be turned to the Crank case and the fitting of the crank.

 

 

 

 

[Stormin]

Those liners look huge. Seeing them being placed in gives a good idea of the scale of this engine. Im used to seeing tractor cylinder liners much smaller than this of course.

I'm surprised you have filed the liners flush with the top of the block. It is common on vintage tractor engines for the liner to finish proud of the block by several thou and the fire ring of the head gasket to accomodate this projection. What sort of head gasket will you be fitting to the Thorney?

[Minesweeper]

Those liners look huge. Seeing them being placed in gives a good idea of the scale of this engine. Im used to seeing tractor cylinder liners much smaller than this of course.

I'm surprised you have filed the liners flush with the top of the block. It is common on vintage tractor engines for the liner to finish proud of the block by several thou and the fire ring of the head gasket to accomodate this projection. What sort of head gasket will you be fitting to the Thorney?

 

Steve can reply properly to you, Norman - but don't forget that this is a fixed head engine and you are looking at the bottoms of the blocks!

 

Tony

[Tharper]

Stunning work! I always am impatient for an update!

 

In regards to a gasket under the cylinder blocks: On my big T-Head Wisconsin they were simply shellacked paper.

[Old Bill]

The bottom of the liners were not quite flush by a couple of thou in some places so I think the bolting flanges for the blocks are slightly distorted. I didn't want to risk distorting the flanges further and possibly cracking the iron although I think that risk would have been very low. There is no gas seal at this end and the contact only need prevent the liners from dropping out should they come loose. The flanges on the end of the liners are 1/8" bigger in diameter than the hole in the top of the crank case so they could not fall out in any case. The liners are not as tight as our motor mechanic friend would have liked but I just wasn't brave enough to specify a solid interference fit. These have all gone in with a good push which is exactly what I had hoped for. I am, however, very glad that the job is done!

 

Regarding gaskets, I intend to use a paper type one that is a cross between thick brown wrapping paper and very thin card. I haven't come across shellac coated paper. What effect does that have?

 

You have intrigued me with your big Wisconsin engine! What sort is it and what is its history?

 

Cheers!

 

Steve :-)

[Tharper]

Hello Steve,

 

Yes, the paper gaskets I found under the cylinder blocks were similar to brown wrapping paper. In regards to the shellac - the gasket is coated with it and installed wet. This seals the paper and makes the gasket quite tough. In fact in the old Dykes Automotive books they mention making a head gasket using layers of shellacked paper.

 

The Wisconsin I have its the bigger sibling to yours. (6 cylinder, 5/3/4"x7") It came out of a 1925 Lombard tractor. There is a Great War connection albiet through Russia which bought a few Lombards in 1917. These were equiped with Wisconsin Model P engines.

 

Here is a clipping concerning the sale to Russia

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]The Wall Street Journal, Feb 17, 1917 [/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]"Gaston Williams & Wigmore have closed contracts with the Russian government for large shipments of Lombard "caterpillar" tractors delivery to begin in the spring. These machines are similar to those in use on the British front. The type of tractor ordered is a 100-HP gasolene machine with caterpillar treads. Russian officials had taken a few of the tractors for trial, and the present orders are placed after rigid tests in actual service."[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

As found - note the valve which were bent by scavangers trying to remove the lifter guides.

 

Progress - sporting the new upper water manifold and valves.

 

Here is a photo of a Lombard tractor captured by German forces. You can see the front of another Lombard visible to the right of the pole. Note the ski's on this machine while the one in the background is equiped with wheels.

 

In 1919 Lombard recieved a letter from the Wisconsin Engine Manufacturing Company asking where a particular engine had been sold. It seems the Allies had recovered the engine in France and were quite concerned how it got there!

 

Here is a link to my on-going restoration thread: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/big-big-wisconsin-t-head-engine-188057/ Currently I am working on the last of the pattern and core box work.

 

Here is a video of what this beast will sound like - this one belongs to a good friend and is the only surviving Lombard operating with its original engine. These tractors were manufactured in Waterville, Maine, USA and were used to haul long sled trains of timber during the winter months. Lombard did try for war era government contracts but the only sales I know of were those to Russia.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

Edited December 28, 2012 by Tharper

[Old Bill]

Hi Terry.

 

What a splendid machine! I had never heard of Lombard but I might recognise one now!

 

That engine is quite something and I can certainly see how big a project you have taken on. I have had a very quick look at your thread and the work you are doing is most impressive. I shall read it through in detail shortly. Your attitude to it is great: When something new comes along, just read up and have a go. Everything is possible if you really want to do it and you are proving that. The family resemblence between your engine and our model 'A' is striking and I know exactly what you are doing. Good luck with it all, thank you for sharing it with us and I shall look forward to watching future progress.

 

All the very best,

 

Steve

[Great War truck]

Terry

 

What a fascinating thread. Amazed to see those railway engines sitting in the woods!

 

Anyway, we have reached the stage of re-assembling the engine – and the Crank Shaft must now go back in. We have two of these – one that came with the whole engine from New Zealand and the other from the “half” engine that we acquired some years ago. One Crank Shaft is in noticeably better condition than the other – but the timing pinion on that one has a broken tooth – so again it is a case of mix and match. These photos show the removal of the timing pinion from the rough Crank Shaft which will go on the sound shaft but at this stage, we were very concerned that the two holes for the taper pins in the two shafts and the slots for the two keys would not match up – which would have given us another problem. Interestingly, the taper pin knocked out of the rough shaft appears to be a home made job – with residual file marks from its manufacture still visible on it!

 

 

 

 

However, there was nothing to worry about as the sound pinion came off cleanly – and the Taper Pin holes and the slots for the keys matched up beautifully. We did just put a taper pin reamer through the replacement pinion and the hole in the sound shaft to clean it up and take out any residual debris. As far as we can make out, there was at least a two years gap in the dates of the manufacture of the two engines and it is really quite amazing to see the fine precision in the machining of these items so that they are interchangeable. We were also able to us the other original taper pin again which was cross drilled at the thin end for a split pin!

 

 

 

 

The nuts and bolts securing the fly wheel to the crank shaft also needed to be replaced at this stage.

 

 

[Great War truck]

To replace the crank shaft, the crank case had to be inverted – this was lifted off its stand using the chain pulley – dropped onto the ground – rolled over and lifted back on to the engine stand – but with cross timbers put in place to protect the studs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The crank shaft was then dropped onto a half of the shell bearings in the crank case which had been “blued” and then checked for an initial fit. This all went well – but the crank was in and out several times before we were satisfied with it! Little more was done this day and we plan to complete the installation tomorrow – together with one cam shaft – the second cam shaft requires a Governor to be fitted to it before that can be put in and of course, that is yet to be made!

 

 

 

 

[Asciidv]

Were you not making it more difficult for yourself by fitting the crank with the flywheel already attached? Or was there a reason why the flywheel had to be present? When you were fitting the crank could you adjust the end float and what about the main bearings. Did you just repalace the main bearing caps exactly as they came off or did you have to 'juggle' them around? What torque did you use on the main bearing nuts? Was it from a torque wrench or just an appropriately sized spanner and an interpreted number of foot-Steve-pounds?

[Asciidv]

......and another question! Does this engine have shell bearings as the text suggests or is it white metalled? Isn't it very advanced to have shells?

 

Barry.

[Old Bill]

Hi Barry.

 

I think that the bearing caps were machined at the same time as the crank case so they are non-interchangeable and non-reversible. The shells are white metal die-castings about 3/16" thick and would be a real pain to replace so I have simply put the originals back. I measured up the crank, which comes from the other engine, and found that the journals are only 0.001" smaller than those originally fitted so I have simply set the shims so that the crank is gripped when the caps are tightened down. I then blued and scraped the white metal back until i achieved a good contact and the crank turned freely at which point I did them up 'tight' and then gave them a bit more until the split pin holes lined up. Not very scientific but I have confidence that we will be OK!

 

The end float is set by the centre bearing shell and is non-adjustable. The float appears to be about 0.030" which feels OK but I don't know how much it should be. How much would you expect?

 

The reason for leaving the flywheel on was that we couldn't get it off!

 

Cheers!

 

Steve

[Great War truck]

So today, it was back to fitting the Crank Shaft Bearings – picking up where we left off yesterday. A bit of a tiresome job where they have to be “blued” – replaced, tested, taken out again and scraped if necessary and then repeated yet again and again until we are satisfied that they are “right” and that the shaft will revolve in them without any tightness or sloppiness.

 

 

 

 

 

With the Crank Shaft successfully back in, the next job was to turn the engine around – right way up from its upside down position and this was just a repeat of the process that we used earlier to invert it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Great War truck]

The next job would have been to re-fit both the cam shafts – but only one is ready to be fitted at the moment – you will re-call that we have to make a new Governor assembly and that has to be fitted to the Inlet cam shaft gear wheel before that one can go in.

The two bearings on the cam shaft have to be precisely located in the engine as they are locked in position in their housings by special bolts inserted through the top of the crank case. There are socket-type holes in the bearings to take them. The pinion on the back of the crank shaft and the gear wheel on the crank shaft are both clearly marked with a “4” to make alignment easy for the fitter as these must coincide for correct timing.

This really completes our objectives for the Christmas Break and now we must turn our attentions to making a new Governor, completing the Water Pump and making a pattern for the new pistons. And of course, painting!

 

 

 

 

 

 

7412 7421

[Roy Larkin]

Looks like a bigger workshop might be useful? Here's the engine repair shop at 3rd Heavy Repair Shop (358 Coy ASC) at St Omer if you need a model to follow. Looks like you aren't alone in needing some engine work doing.