simon stolly Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The debate about A-frames and trailers has been discussed a few times, but how does the spec-lift come in to the equation? I see breakdown trucks and new car transporters delivering cars using spec- lifts mounted on the back of the towing vehicle (not a dolly) all the time on the motorways, no braking systems are being employed that I can see, are these operators breaking the law or are they using a loophole? What weight can a suspended tow move before it has to have linked brakes? or is it for recovery to to the nearest point of repair only? and not for general vehicle transport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppypiesdad Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Most breakdown wagons are classed as car ambulances, so don't need tacho's and plating's (but think things are changing) and always thought that the load sensing valve on the towing vehicle would adjust the brake bias to allow for the increased weight and therefore braking effort needed, so in effect the suspended load became a load on the axle of the towing vehicle , As for the linked brakes no idea ? Just my opinion Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 car ambulances:confused: never heard that one before?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Surely the AA, RAC etc cannot be operating illegally? There must be some loophole but also maybe an upper weight limit as to the load which may be recovered. Dependant on the towing vehicle of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Maybe the answer will be here http://forum.recoveryworld.co.uk/login.asp?target=default.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I thought the law was you could tow a broken down vehicle to the nearest safe place or nearest place for repair, on an A frame without the towed vehicle being braked. It is only if you chose to tow a vehicle that isn't broken down ( Ie you are doing it for your own convenience, not out of necessity,) that the vehicle on the A frame has to be braked in unison with the towing vehicle. Presumably the same rule applies to Spectacle lift, ie if the casuality is genuinely broken down, then you can tow it unbraked, but if you chose to deliver a new car , (for example) that could be driven, then you would be breaking the law if it were not braked. This is my undersanding, not the official view of the forum, Please correct me if I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I thought the law was you could tow a broken down vehicle to the nearest safe place or nearest place for repair, on an A frame without the towed vehicle being braked. It is only if you chose to tow a vehicle that isn't broken down ( Ie you are doing it for your own convenience, not out of necessity,) that the vehicle on the A frame has to be braked in unison with the towing vehicle. Presumably the same rule applies to Spectacle lift, ie if the casuality is genuinely broken down, then you can tow it unbraked, but if you chose to deliver a new car , (for example) that could be driven, then you would be breaking the law if it were not braked. This is my undersanding, not the official view of the forum, Please correct me if I am wrong. Wouldn't take a lot to artificially disable a vehicle to effect emergency recovery status :whistle: if you were so inclined to be bending the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 When we have 2 vehicles in for recovery one goes on the back and the other on the spec the spec is part of the truck not a A frame that is fastened to the towbar of the truck so it becomes part of the weight we can move legally Commander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Above is correct. A spec lift is part of the vehicle (permantly attached and made for a sole purpose of transporting another vehicle in the recovery role) and as such is taken into consideration when working out vehicle weights, axle weights, etc. Spec lift is as legal as an underlift fitted to heavy commercial wreckers. Vehicles carried on a spec lift have no legal requirement to be braked. It makes sense to use the causaulties own braking system but is not a legal requirment. Laws relating to recovery vehicles and operations are somewhat different to normal commercial rules and regulations. For example - when I worked in heavy recovery I had to recover many "bendie-buses" in Central London. Legally as a commercial vehicle I was over length but not in relation to recovering a casualty as long as I was operating a "recovery vehicle" - i.e a vehicle made for the sole purpose of moving broken down vehicles and not capable of being used to convey cargo. Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 All makes sense what Mark Heliops says. Otherwise how else could a max legal length artic be recovered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 When I was recovered off the A34 with the Antar, I was under Police escort, and 122 feet overall...ane that was on a rigid towbar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon stolly Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Now I have you all thinking. If a spec lift's 'load' is part of the vehicles 'load' and not separate as a trailer, or a dolly, or a A-bar is, then is a HGV rigid with a vehicle on a spec lift, still classed as a rigid or is it classed as an Artic and need a class 1 licence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 And when a spectacle lift recovery has the front end of an artic in the lift, is it towing two trailers and should it be viewed as a locomotive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Okay - this will confuse you - You do not need an HGV1 to suspend tow using a commercial recovery vehicle - why - because I have already said recovery rules and regulations are different to commercial licencing and regulations. Likewise a recovery vehicle does not need an MOT or annual test certificate - When suspend towing using an underlift or spec lift, it doesn't matter what combination the vehicles are as they are refered to as - the load - hence rules and regulations are ignored in this respect. Told you it was confusing - In a word - recovery vehicles don't have much in the way of enforceable rules and regulations - That doesn't mean anyone with a vehicle designed as a recovery vehicle can do the same. The vehicle has to be taxed, insured and operated in an official capacity as a recovery vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 And when a spectacle lift recovery has the front end of an artic in the lift, is it towing two trailers and should it be viewed as a locomotive? If I remember correctly an artic is classed as one trailer if unladen, 2 if laden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 A recovery vehicle can only be used to carry a dissabled vehicle. It is illegal to use a recovery vehicle, registered as such, to deliver new cars, for example. When using an underlift, or crane the maximum gross weight, of a Recovery vehicle having 4 or more axles, plus the disabled vehicle is 50 Tonnes. If the disabled vehicle is carried on a tractor/ trailer combination with 6 or more axles the maximum is 80 Tonnes. This means that the Picture on another thread (Crusader Gallery??), of a Crusader front end lifting an Antar/ semi-trailer combination with MBT loaded would not be legal for a civilian operator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 If the disabled vehicle is carried on a tractor/ trailer combination with 6 or more axles the maximum is 80 Tonnes. How do you work that out Mike, STGO CAT2 can gross 80 tons but with axle limits of 12.5 tons? Even if it were possible to load each axle to the maximum a 6 axle transporter could only gross 75 tons. You could just do it with 7 axles but even then the margin is slight as you can only load a steering axle to 9 tons when using a super single tyre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Quoting from the Traffic Officers handbook.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 How do you work that out Mike, STGO CAT2 can gross 80 tons but with axle limits of 12.5 tons? Even if it were possible to load each axle to the maximum a 6 axle transporter could only gross 75 tons. You could just do it with 7 axles but even then the margin is slight as you can only load a steering axle to 9 tons when using a super single tyre. Wouldn't they effectively be operating under STGO Cat 3 (15tonnes per axle limit)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Wouldn't they effectively be operating under STGO Cat 3 (15tonnes per axle limit)? Yes possibly, but there is also a minimum number of axles to consider. STGO 3 is 16.5 tons/axle. I have struggled to find a single publication that lists all the permutations and combinations. The question I have raised on several occasions is how do the crane support trucks get away with carrying stacks of weights, the dispensation for STGO is that it must be an indivisible load or one that cannot be readily dismantled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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