Adam Elsdon Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 I have no idea who Bart Vanderveen was and dont know what Jim Baxter of IMPS or Preston Isaac of MVT do, and......shock horror, cant say im too bothered! I tend to use this Forum as my main means of keeping abreast with current MV affairs, so Jacks recognition last year by MV royalty (whoever that is) is totally deserved.:bow: There are individuals on this site i would vote for, some of them very knowledgeable and extremely helpful, or in some cases just plain weird! but outside of this arena and due to my location it just doesnt show on the radar so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 (edited) I have no idea who Bart Vanderveen was . A bit of a heads up then... The Bart Vanderveen Challenge Shield was inaugurated in 2001 by Winston Ramsey of After the Battle, publishers of Wheels & Tracks magazine, in recognition of Bart's huge contribution to the military vehicle movement. Bart restored his first military vehicle in 1959, having already published his first book on the subject. During the 'sixties Bart's Olyslager books became - and remain - the essential reference works for enthusiasts worldwide. He went on to publish many military vehicle books and, from 1982 until his death in 2001, he was the editor of Wheels & Tracks magazine. You could say that Bart was the founding father of the present military vehicle movement… and, if it were not for Bart Vanderveen, we might not be standing here today. The Bart Vanderveen Challenge Shield is made to the individual who is felt to have contributed most to the military vehicle preservation movement. The name is chosen from nominations made by fellow enthusiasts and the award is made here at War & Peace. As a mark of respect, for the first year the award was made posthumously to Bart himself... Receipients to date: 2001 Bart Vanderveen 2002 Peter Grey - Founder of the MVT 2003 Rex Cadman - Organiser of the War and Peace Show 2003 Rex Cadman - Organiser of the War and Peace Show/Invicta Military Vehicle Preservation Society 2004 Tony Budge - Founder of the Budge Collection 2005 Joe Lyndhurst - Founder of the Warnham Museum 2006 Preston Isaac - Founder of the Cobbaton Combat Museum 2007 Mike Stallwood - Proprietor of R & R Services 2008 Jack Beckett - Creator of Historic Military Vehicle Forum (HMVF) http://www.afterthebattle.com/bartmem.htm http://www.afterthebattle.com/mvd.html http://www.allbookstores.com/author/Bart_H_Vanderveen.html Edited April 27, 2009 by Marmite!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 Receipients to date: http://www.afterthebattle.com/bartmem.htm Lee, The list of recipients you quoted ( not sure where the quote came from) is incorrect for 2003. The award went to "The War & Peace Show" itself, and was recieved jointly by John Burford for the Invicta Military Vehicle Preservation Society and Rex Cadman for War & Peace Ltd. Full information was in the attached link on your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 (edited) Lee, The list of recipients you quoted ( not sure where the quote came from) is incorrect for 2003. The award went to "The War & Peace Show" itself, and was recieved jointly by John Burford for the Invicta Military Vehicle Preservation Society and Rex Cadman for War & Peace Ltd. Full information was in the attached link on your post. That's correct Richard.. didn't notice the mistake... it came from.... the W&P Website http://www.warandpeaceshow.co.uk/Show-Information/2008-Show/Trophy-History.html Just below where it says.. 2003 Rex Cadman - Organiser of the War and Peace Show/Invicta Military Vehicle Preservation Society Have corrected their mistake.. Edited April 27, 2009 by Marmite!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Being lucky enough to be on the above list and haven't made much comment as I don't think it would be wise but I have the same concerns as Clive. I am surprised that CMV has passed this over - why? It is, in my mind, crucial to the credibility of the award and what it stands for that the decision process is kept independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I dont know why but i have made two attempts to post a lenghty reply on this subject and each time the gods have deemed it not to be.Maybe a bit to contravercial,All i know is i feel happier with the MVT being back in charge than i do with a commercial enterprise.I have no particular alegences as i have managed to upset all of them somewhere down the line.I think remarks about who wouldnt get it if certain people were in charge arn't helpfull and pre suposes a bias that exists only maybe in the minds of people who think it. Independent has been mentioned,independent from what,it would only be truly independent if my local milkman ran it.as he has no interest in military vehicles at all. There is a defenite Age difference here i can tell you that senior members are mostly not impressed with any publications that consistently print so many badly researched articles,why should they be trusted with any thing else,Commonly reffered to as Comics.I was informed to day one of the experts now writes in a tractor magazine :shocked: I would of hoped it shouldnt matter who is in charge of it as in theory they should just count the votes and act acordingly.:sweat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 All i know is i feel happier with the MVT being back in charge than i do with a commercial enterprise. I think remarks about who wouldnt get it if certain people were in charge arn't helpfull and pre suposes a bias that exists only maybe in the minds of people who think it. I would of hoped it shouldnt matter who is in charge of it as in theory they should just count the votes and act acordingly.:sweat: Well put CW, I agree with all that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I dont remember a big spread,which is sort of my point Lee,they dont have a commercial interest.Correction should of read MVT now in charge.:-D I don't see the Bart award as a commercial thing, it was set up in honour of his memory, the way I see it is that giving it little or no coverage is a bit disrespectful no matter who it's awarded to... maybe as the Clubs have now taken over the administration of the award they will do a feature on it with a bit about the past recipients... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 ... maybe as the Clubs have now taken over the administration of the award they will do a feature on it with a bit about the past recipients... I won't hold my breath:sweat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I don't see the Bart award as a commercial thing, it was set up in honour of his memory, the way I see it is that giving it little or no coverage is a bit disrespectful no matter who it's awarded to... maybe as the Clubs have now taken over the administration of the award they will do a feature on it with a bit about the past recipients... Lets hope so ,dont no if theres a problem mate but the posts seem to be changing places:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 dont no if theres a problem mate but the posts seem to be changing places:-D :confused::confused::confused: Forum's been a bit erratic for me tonight:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Just can't see it being a serious move. No matter how you look at it - HMVF would of never and I mean never of been recognised if it was up to the MVT or IMPS. That isn't me being stupid, or political - it is just clearly fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Im sure Bart was an interesting bloke to know, certainly sounded like it. What i cant stand is "Club" mentallity, the "Well i dont like who was voted in as Chairperson for light refreshments, so im going to form a splinter club and call it something with a more impressive title, nah nah nah" You only have to look in a car club listing to see how many one make clubs there are for one sole type of car. The comic/coffee table book mob, enough said, although there are some good authors producing well researched work, even then money making has to be a biasing factor. Its a toughy to be sure, probably back with a club rep to organise, just hope it doesnt turn into an annual mutual back slapping fest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Its nice to be recognised Jack but the pride you have for the Forum is in your heart. There are many people been flogging away for years who havnt been recognised mate,And some who have should never of got a sniff at it.I know i have worked for them there only motivation was profit.Lovable rogues my asre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Im sure Bart was an interesting bloke to know, certainly sounded like it. What i cant stand is "Club" mentallity, the "Well i dont like who was voted in as Chairperson for light refreshments, so im going to form a splinter club and call it something with a more impressive title, nah nah nah" You only have to look in a car club listing to see how many one make clubs there are for one sole type of car. The comic/coffee table book mob, enough said, although there are some good authors producing well researched work, even then money making has to be a biasing factor. Its a toughy to be sure, probably back with a club rep to organise, just hope it doesnt turn into an annual mutual back slapping fest. Theres a lot of truth in what you say adam,thats why i found the forum refreshing.The Nelson owners club only had two rules you had to own a Nelson boat and the annual general meeting musnt last more than ten minutes.No cups no prizes,Then when someone found the original brass plate from the offices at vosper thornycroft he mounted it on timber plate and asked the club officials to award it to someone for something.Well i got it the first year for the Restoration of Horatia.The following year it went to a boat that travelled from Bristol to Cowes but the owner came by car.That started the rot and the grumblings started,I found myself getting drawn into it and agreeing he shouldnt of got it.Best do with out these awards.You could never imagine what was said when our champ got best in show at Duxford.Its nice to get some recognition but humans being what they are there will allways be controvercy.:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 . You could never imagine what was said when our champ got best in show at Duxford..:-D I bet it went like this! Those post war Austin Champ marvels are just fantastic, much better than that wartime tat, and that Catweazle bloke is a fine pillar of the community, i would of voted twice but with all voting under international scrutiny thanks to Robert Mugabe, i feared arrest by the authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I bet it went like this! Those post war Austin Champ marvels are just fantastic, much better than that wartime tat, and that Catweazle bloke is a fine pillar of the community, i would of voted twice but with all voting under international scrutiny thanks to Robert Mugabe, i feared arrest by the authorities. :rofl::rofl::rofl:you must of been one of the judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Its nice to be recognised Jack but the pride you have for the Forum is in your heart.There are many people been flogging away for years who havnt been recognised mate,And some who have should never of got a sniff at it.I know i have worked for them there only motivation was profit.Lovable rogues my asre. I hear yer CW but how many of those who moan about folks not being recognised actually get of thiers bums and vote? Not many I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M5Clive Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I think remarks about who wouldnt get it if certain people were in charge arn't helpfull and pre suposes a bias that exists only maybe in the minds of people who think it. Interesting point of view CW. However my view doesn't actually come about based upon a pre-suposed opinion. It was actually determined by my attendance (in my capacity as Area Secretary) at a succession of MVT Council of Management meeting in recent years. It was very apparent from the opinions voiced by some of those around the table that for various reasons, HMVF and its moderators/creators were generally not liked, certainly not remotely respected nor commended for moving the hobbie/movement in a hitherto, new direction. It proves nothing to mention more details within this thread (and nor will I name names), but I will certainly stress that this was definitely not a unanimous opinion voiced by all council members present by any means. However, what it does prove (relevant to this topic being discussed) is that their has in the past, been sufficient bad feelings towards the likes of HMVF to bias any such level playing field when it comes to deciding upon a suitable recipient for the BV Award and to that end, I stand by my initial comments and reiterate that I am not basing my opinions on a 'pre-suposed bias,' but moreo sound facts that I heard with my own ears, but that will not be found in any minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Cheers for that Clive,You mention Moderators/creators sounds very personel.But then again i have fell out with MVT personell before,i would hope that wouldnt influence me to much against what the club stands for.As you say it wasnt the view of all so theres hope yet.I think we have an age problem,the oldies dont want to much change and the young uns dont want to live in the past.Something so different as HMVF is bound to be contraversial it flies in the face of convention,wandering off topic,joking,mucking about,And other chatter contains more posts than the vehicle topics.What a mess,long may it continue:yay::yay::yay::-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 It was actually determined by my attendance (in my capacity as Area Secretary) at a succession of MVT Council of Management meeting in recent years. It was very apparent from the opinions voiced by some of those around the table that for various reasons, HMVF and its moderators/creators were generally not liked, certainly not remotely respected nor commended for moving the hobbie/movement in a hitherto, new direction. I knew there was a reason why i didnt renew my membership, sounds pretty small minded stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 <snipped>I think we have an age problem,the oldies dont want to much change and the young uns dont want to live in the past.</snipped> Isn't that a bit of a contradiction there CW?? :rofl: :rofl: If the young don't want to live in the past - why would they then invest in old MV's and equipment?? :rofl: :rofl: (Sorry mate - couldn't resist that one!! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodge Deep Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Well if the first award was posthumous, I don't see why this years couldn't be? After all its a lot of big toys in a little field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Isn't that a bit of a contradiction there CW?? :rofl: :rofl:If the young don't want to live in the past - why would they then invest in old MV's and equipment?? :rofl: :rofl: (Sorry mate - couldn't resist that one!! ) Whot i meant mate was they aint to interested in why hannabal used elephants only the elephants:nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M5Clive Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I think we have an age problem,the oldies dont want to much change and the young uns dont want to live in the past. Something so different as HMVF is bound to be contraversial it flies in the face of convention,wandering off topic,joking,mucking about,And other chatter contains more posts than the vehicle topics.What a mess,long may it continue:yay::yay::yay::-D I think you have something here CW. I do think that Forums in general and not universally liked by all and probably more so by the old-school. The volunteer committee that form the MVT CoM are 'by and large' those of the more experienced age group - many of which are retired/semi retired (inc. the Chairman) and during my attendance at meetings, probably only one (except me) under 40 - And I don't think he has as much involvement as he used to. However, nothing is really done to actively encourage younger members to get involved at council level and I say that as a 'youthful' 34 yr old member. Rex Ward (past chairman) tried very hard last year to get me to stand for the CoM, but a combination of bad timing (a baby on the way and a house project about to start), concerns voiced regarding my suitability for a council position by other more-traditional members of the CoM and a personal feeling that I would simply not fit-in due to my desire to want to bring about changes, when the vast majority of CoM volunteers firmly believe that things are perfectly ok as they are, all led me to the decision not to stand. I know that its all-too easy to snipe from the sidelines from the comfort of our own homes and to criticise and complain about the way our clubs are run by the 'all too small' number of volunteers that commit their time and efforts towards running such clubs and I know that some of my comments may be construed as such. However, some things that the CoM have done I simply do not agree with and I feel particularly strongly about their negative attitude towards anything related to HMVF. On the other hand, I think they are worthy of commending for certain things - successfully gaining all that wonderful gift-aid funding for the benefit of the membership to name one such example. Sorry, I seem to have gone totally off-topic, but I guess it is all related to the age thing that CW referred to. Your never going to please everyone of course and to that end, the CoM are in a no-win situation. I just hope that those in a position of decision making will be mindful of the need to keep an open mind as far as pre-judging any potential contender for the Bart Vanderveen award and remember just what the award is in recognition of - Something I feel which has been totally overlooked in the eyes of those who question HMVF's suitability of the award in 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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