British Mk II "Tommy" helmet question

[Snapper]

Greetings. I've just been given what looks like a pretty standard "Tommy" helmet. Now I'd be too bloody lucky if it was a Brodie - but it is interesting nonethless.

 

I already have two others. One is stamped 1938 in the 'furniture' and is either RAF blue or a police issue type. Me and a mate found it on a railway embankment in 1972. The other is black and has no info in it and I assume it is a civil defence or heavy rescue type - because there were so many colours and markings. Very collectable.

 

This new helmet intrigues me. It is grey-ish in colour - like a grey green. It has no date in the furniture, but has a number stamped on the underside brim. The straps are canvas with clips of the american style - not British at all. The retaining screw and nut are much smaller than the big lump British screw.

Any thoughts - could this be a pre M1 pattern US helmet? I'm not unconvinced the chin straps are not a replacement - but it came from an old bloke who had it for years.

 

MB

 

MB

[woa2]

My guess is that it is Fire Service. If you look at AFS uniforms, they are wearing Grey helmets.

I did have a helmet once that was Grey with a London Fire brigade badge on it. Black were usually Fire Wardens or Police.

[Snapper]

Good call....That crossed my mind - no badges though - but the chin straps are all wrong - not British. I'm happy with it nonethless. It's for a blimmin' small head regardless (not that I wear the things)...

 

helmets issued to staff at The Times for firewatching and general stuff around the head office were all black. I'm assuming the owners at the time - Major Astor and co, would have had access to supplies. This is also true of people at Kemsley newspapers (Daily Sketch). I think the colour schemes on these civilian service helmets are interesting because of the variety - loads of regional differences.

MB

Edited October 3, 2008 by Snapper

[Rlangham]

Good way to prove it's a Brodie - put it on something level (like a table), make sure the straps aren't affecting the way it sits (take them off or tuck them inside). Then, put a finger or two on the rim at the front and back - if it rocks, you've got yourself a Brodie. If it doesn't, it's a Mk II. I've had some funny looks at militaria stalls!

[ted angus]

Greetings. I've just been given what looks like a pretty standard "Tommy" helmet. Now I'd be too bloody lucky if it was a Brodie - but it is interesting nonethless.

 

I already have two others. One is stamped 1938 in the 'furniture' and is either RAF blue or a police issue type. Me and a mate found it on a railway embankment in 1972. The other is black and has no info in it and I assume it is a civil defence or heavy rescue type - because there were so many colours and markings. Very collectable.

 

This new helmet intrigues me. It is grey-ish in colour - like a grey green. It has no date in the furniture, but has a number stamped on the underside brim. The straps are canvas with clips of the american style - not British at all. The retaining screw and nut are much smaller than the big lump British screw.

Any thoughts - could this be a pre M1 pattern US helmet? I'm not unconvinced the chin straps are not a replacement - but it came from an old bloke who had it for years.

 

MB

 

MB

 

Some 10 years ago many of the stalls at shows were selling TOMMIE style helmets with canvas or leather straps that fastened with clips. No date just a short serial type number. Some had a leather neck veil. They were post WW2 Nederlands forces. The leather veiled ones were for RNAF firemen. I have one in my collection.

I feel the colour of a helmet can easily mislead you when trying to find its origin history previous use.

I joined the RAF in 64 , until 1972 I was only ever issued with a Tommie pattern, all WW2 dated; at each camp you haned in your helmet and got issued with a new one they were all with the horrible black liner which if you were unlucky stuck to your head. Colours were assorted, greys black, greens, browns and of course traces of Light Stone. Some that had been used by RAF firemen were red. they were tatty and most were down to bare steel all round the rim.

In those days we didn't have matt green paint that came along in 1974.

The norm was to scrounge some paint stripper from the paint shop, some red oxide primer and matt black blackboard paint. remove the liner , strip the paint, prime with red oxide, then mix a small amount of black to some red oxide for the finish. Most helmets seemed to have a dark brown as the original colour; traces of which were normally found inside around the area of the liner retainer fastening.

Prior to Fire Service nationalisation in aug 1941 the AFS helmets were to be painted Dk Admiralty grey BS 381c tint 32 (later 632). once hostilities commenced full time firemen were required to don steel helmets in lieu of their cork/leather ones and these were normally glossy black or grey.

 

On nationalisation the colour of Fire Service helmets was KHAKI for firemen and junior officer ranks, senior officers helmets were painted Aluminium.

This information is taken from my 1942 copy of the NFS drill book (manual of firemanship).

I have an unmolested NFS helmet and the colour is almost identical to SCC2 from the Standard Cam Colours of BS 987c. SCC 2 was commonly and incorrectly referred to as DK Earth.

The first TURTLE helmet I was issued with was in the summer of 1972 in Cyprus. The internal security situation was deteriorating, guard stints increased and we all got a new helmet !! those for our flight arrived on a fork lift in a big wooden crate Property of the Home Office War Reserve stencilled all over the crate. Inside dozens of turtles, smooth finish bright blue POLICE in white on the front. Immaculate except one thing the black liners had started to melt and as they were unpacked part of your liner was left on the top of the helmet it had been sitting on. WE got some old sheets from the bedding store tore them into strips and using insulation tape stuck the sheet strips onto the black liners.

My next helmet was issued in the UK in early 1974 another Turtle rough finish in its original colour finished in a satin dark brown , this one had the new type inner reddy brown internal spider made from a pressed board material ; a sponge type head band which had a green tubular cloth cover and an elasticated chin strap. I cherish that helmet it saved my swede on several occassions over the years. Then of course we got the Kevlar job which squashed the head and the rest is history.

attached I am the handsome Sgt modelling the chick turtle that saved my swede more than once!

 

P>S> ROB have you built your WEETON YET ???

TED

[Richard Farrant]

I joined the RAF in 64 , until 1972 I was only ever issued with a Tommie pattern, all WW2 dated; at each camp you haned in your helmet and got issued with a new one they were all with the horrible black liner which if you were unlucky stuck to your head. Colours were assorted, greys black, greens, browns and of course traces of Light Stone. Some that had been used by RAF firemen were red. they were tatty and most were down to bare steel all round the rim.

 

 

Ted,

 

While in the RAF, did you ever come across WW2 Tommy type helmets, painted a bright blue with the letters "RAD" in yellow on the front? I came across one of these dumped from a RAF establishment, years ago. All I could think was that it was something to do with Radiation :confused:

[ted angus]

Richard All operational units had active and passive defence teams ; manned by airmen who were not involved in the operational preperation of aircraft and /or weapons. Often teams were multi role ; fire, first aid, Lt Rescue . they wore coloured helmets with relevant markings. The guy in the picture I posted has a mid blue helmet with Rescue. He is wearing his war role team helmet on the fire strike.

The helmet you describe may have been from the cold war RAD could be short for Radiac Survey. In the days when you were a junior you only knew what directly involved you if you get my drift. Certainly at Scampton in the late 60s we had teams but I never actually saw any on exercise I always seemed to be buried in some diesel set or in a truck trundling to our dispersed QRA at Thurliegh in Beds. In Germany where I was very involved in the defence support teams we had some blue helmets but they wre incident commanders.

But I don't recall any bright blue helmets, all the bright blue I have seen were civ police I wonder if they had a radiac survey task post 1968 ?? or the helmet could have belonged to a member of a Special safety Team that responded to nuclear accidents ??

I have been looking for clues in a book about Civil Defence but it hasn't revealed anything . So my money on the poor sod tasked with carrying our Radiac Survey,

 

GOING BACK to Snapper's original post this CD book mentions that helmets issued to all civilian services were in 1938/9 originally in a light grey green !!! in the light of lessons learned during early ARP type exercises the HO decided to embark on coloured helmets and markings to replace armbands So snappers helmet could be from some CD org and has been modified with a different strap ?/

TED

[Snapper]

Ted/ Richard...

 

This is all quality stuff. I think you've hit the nail on the head...sorry for the pun.

 

The joy of it is, I am really happy to have the helmet. I like the MkII's in all their strange varieties. I'm keeping tabs on a local tat shop that has a couple of WW2 CD varieties as part of their displays.

 

This new one goes with the other two in a pile of the things, which include one Turtle, one GS Mk6, two Swiss pudding bowl, one Swiss M1918 (a man in a Leigh On Sea antiques shop was passing them off as Swedish at £150 each - oh how we laughed - he went under), one M1 pattern probably Dutch or German (Beltring £5 1999), one GDR steel (I was once offered a plastic GDR parade helmet for £20 but like a fool said no) and a Czech soviet pattern thing. I would be a serious collector if I had the time. But I just pick them up. They're saved. Thats all that matters to me. Wife unimpressed.

 

 

 

MB

[Phil P]

I understand that the large screw fixing on the top was military pattern and the small screw was the 'civvy' ie fire brigade /warden etc version. Mine is an ARP warden type (My fathers.) and that has the small screw leather interior and canvas chin strap. My mate has a RAF issue and that has the large screw. Hmmm

 

Phil.

[ted angus]

Hi Phil the following is going to muddy the water:

My unmolested National Fire Service example has a date stamp 1938 under the rim. large retaining screw. Nothing else on either the helmet or inner legible.

The one ex Nederlands has a small screw, but evidense that it once had a large headed screw; under rim marking JSS followed by a roman one

then on a second line HFF 1939 the spider of the inner has 60 which of course is a metric size and suggests these helmets were put together post war in the Nederlands but utilising outers surplus from UK, or recycled from helmets originally issued to Free Dutch Forces.

the next one origin unknown is a very dark brown almost black. large screw, E58 followed by Roman one then 1939 under rim spider is marked 7BMB next line a roman one next line 1939.

 

finally tatty dk brown when I got it nothing visible under rim marked 6 and three quarters TTC roman one 1939 on the spider

 

TED

[Snapper]

My grey/green one definitely has a small screw. On the brim is the serial number VB12555L0 or O. The only number inside is on the cross frame of the furniture and that is a 5 and what looks like a 4 - the size methinks.

 

MB

[79x100]

I have copies of an old article by Marcus Cotton from 'Militaria' magazine and he states that the screw type is an indicator of date (although of course it's easy to change).

The 1938 Lining Securing Bolt Mk1 had a 16.25mm head and was 9.37mm long (he's metric !) this was replaced by a longer version (The Mk11) and then in 1942 by the Lining Securing Bolt Mk111 which had the small (10mm) head.

 

There are also lists of manufacturers.

 

JSS was Joseph Sankey & Sons (Bilston).

I can't find HFF or E58

BMB is Briggs Motor Bodies (Dagenham)

TTC is Teddy Toy Company (who made lots of liners)

 

The Roman I would suggest a Mk 1 helmet. Are the markings on the rim or the strap lugs ? Photos would be great !

[Enigma]

Snapper, got some pics?

 

Well, VB is probably VerBliFa, Vereenigde Blik Fabrikanten(United Tin Factory).

I got some of those, US style chinstrap attachments (swivel bales).

 

Dutch, the same factory also made US style helmets.

Actually the bulk of my repro US helmets are VB's.

 

Just googled, they also made pre-war helmets for the Dutch army .

Edited October 7, 2008 by Enigma

[ted angus]

I have copies of an old article by Marcus Cotton from 'Militaria' magazine and he states that the screw type is an indicator of date (although of course it's easy to change).

The 1938 Lining Securing Bolt Mk1 had a 16.25mm head and was 9.37mm long (he's metric !) this was replaced by a longer version (The Mk11) and then in 1942 by the Lining Securing Bolt Mk111 which had the small (10mm) head.

 

There are also lists of manufacturers.

 

JSS was Joseph Sankey & Sons (Bilston).

I can't find HFF or E58

BMB is Briggs Motor Bodies (Dagenham)

TTC is Teddy Toy Company (who made lots of liners)

 

The Roman I would suggest a Mk 1 helmet. Are the markings on the rim or the strap lugs ? Photos would be great !

 

Re the markings:#

JSS roman one HFF 1939 are on the rim . THe 60 is on the spider of the lining

 

E58 roman one 1938 on rim 7BMB roman one 1939 on spider of lining

 

TTC roman one 1939 spider of lining.

 

By spider of lining == is the piece that sits above the top of the skull which is secured by a screw or press the dot fitting to the outer is called the spider as it normally has 4 legs !!

 

TED

[ted angus]

P.S. photos not possible at the moment I got a monsoon in my digi and although I purchased a new one last week I had to send it back as the software was corrupt.

Sorry

[ted angus]

Snapper, got some pics?

 

Well, VB is probably VerBliFa, Vereenigde Blik Fabrikanten(United Tin Factory).

I got some of those, US style chinstrap attachments (swivel bales).

 

Dutch, the same factory also made US style helmets.

Actually the bulk of my repro US helmets are VB's.

 

Just googled, they also made pre-war helmets for the Dutch army .

 

 

I think this bears out my original theory based on the strap pattern that Snappers ne aquisition was a post WW2 Dutch.

TED

[Snapper]

Will try and do some pics if time allows. This is fascinating. I'll have to look at the other two as well. The tin hat corner seems to have come to life...:-D

[Phil P]

And I just thought these things were 'Tommy helmets'. The thick plottens! We had a customer bring in a tin hat in and asked us to drill a couple of 1/2" holes in it one on each side and then dent one in and the opposite side out to make it look as though a bullet had gone straight through. (We get some strange requests off customers.) He said he was going to walk into his local pub with it on for a laugh. Well we machine most stainless and tool steels with ease. That tin hat was something else. We 'blued' a few drills before we did it. Somebody no doubt tell me what it is made from. Oh yes it had a large brass screw in the top.

 

Phil.

[79x100]

The drilled helmet would have been a manganese steel one then. At some point, hardened mild steel was issued to the non-combatant services.

 

These are the markings on my two :-

 

Shell - WD - William Dobson & Son (Birmingham) I 1939 - HFO

Liner - Helmets Ltd. 1939 - 7

 

Shell - ROco - Rubery Owen & Co (Darlaston) II 1940 - HX

Liner - TTC - Teddy Toy 1940 - 7

 

The HFO and HX codes relate I believe to the steel batches.

 

There is sometimes a date stamped on the stainless chinstrap lugs.

 

I'd quite like to find a Mk1* (The modified Brodie) if anyone knows of one.

[Richard Farrant]

The guy in the picture I posted has a mid blue helmet with Rescue. He is wearing his war role team helmet on the fire strike.

 

The helmet you describe may have been from the cold war RAD could be short for Radiac Survey.

 

In Germany where I was very involved in the defence support teams we had some blue helmets but they wre incident commanders.

 

But I don't recall any bright blue helmets, all the bright blue I have seen were civ police

 

Ted,

 

Not a good photo, but the chap on the left is wearing the blue "RAD" marked helmet, as you can see it is a quite bright blue. Your comments on Radiac survey was something along the lines of what I thought. All I recollect about the helmet was the black sticky headband :shake:

 

You might be intrigued by the red thing, it once served with the RN.......does that give you a clue?

[ted angus]

Ah the RED Thing the Mighty Dennis from The Steve Shirley Flying Circus ???

TED

[Snapper]

I'm going to have a look at my other two over the weekend. Maybe do some snaps if time allows. I'm supposed to be playing with the MUTT and looking for bathroom stuff. Management will decide.

 

This has been a great thread. Educational and fun.

 

I'm glad I asked. Power to HMVF.

[Richard Farrant]

Ah the RED Thing the Mighty Dennis from The Steve Shirley Flying Circus ???

 

 

Correct Ted !

 

The guy wearing the helmet was one of the welders from Workshops where we restored the F12........and also Steve's TACR1

[tiggerman44]

hi there ive recently bought what looks like a brodie helmet but im told its a dutch vb tommy helmet could you please tell me where i might be able to find any pictures on the net of it so i can print them off reguards tiggerman 44 my email address is tiggerman44@msn.com.

[unionjack]

The VB MkII style helmets with the stretchy straps with clips on are almost certainly Dutch. Certainly not British anyway. They often seem to have the strap lugs welded on rather than rivetted through as were ours.