Austin Champ Windscreen Frame.

[Terra1936]

 There are boxes on the side of windscreen. Are these turn signals? Semiphores? I have seeb these only in photos twice? 

[wally dugan]

yes they are semiphore  indicators

[Terra1936]

9 hours ago, wally dugan said:

yes they are semiphore  indicators

Thanks. Was that a military install? Must be rare or everyone removed them? 

[wally dugan]

semiphore indicators were fitted to some series one land rovers in military service but l have never come across champs with them fitted but that does not mean they could have been but all the one's that have worked on never once did l come across them My feeling is they were fitted when  they  left military service

[Terra1936]

Thanks again. I have only seen these two in the photos. Strange as they appera to be 24 volt. 

[radiomike7]

3 hours ago, Terra1936 said:

Thanks again. I have only seen these two in the photos. Strange as they appera to be 24 volt. 

Civilian versions were 12V, I'm almost sure the military ones were 24V.

[wally dugan]

ALL  military champs were 24 volt and you could buy 24 volt semiphore indicators the question is were they fitted to champs while used by the military   

[Terra1936]

Yes. What were they (Answered) and who used them? Yes they are 24 volt. 

[wally dugan]

ALL ARMY champs were registered  in the BE SERIES OF NUMBERS a smaller number  IN BF SERIES OFNUMBERS 

[Terra1936]

I tried Merlin. No info. 

[sirhc]

26 minutes ago, Terra1936 said:

I tried Merlin. No info. 

The Champs were all out if service about 30 years before the Merlin database existed. 

[wally dugan]

This one was sold in GERMANY IN  APRIL 1968

[fv1609]

12 hours ago, wally dugan said:

ALL  military champs were 24 volt and you could buy 24 volt semiphore indicators the question is were they fitted to champs while used by the military   

These are all in service photos, several seem to be OC or prestige vehicles. So maybe after-market but in-service embellishment?

and this rather odd one:

[Terra1936]

58 minutes ago, sirhc said:

The Champs were all out if service about 30 years before the Merlin database existed. 

Thanks for information!

[Terra1936]

8 minutes ago, fv1609 said:

These are all in service photos, several seem to be OC or prestige vehicles. So maybe after-market but in-service embellishment?

and this rather odd one:

Wow! Semiphores!

[Terra1936]

33 minutes ago, wally dugan said:

This one was sold in GERMANY IN  APRIL 1968

Brought to states in 1978. 

[wally dugan]

 As it was sold in europe there is ever chance it stayed there until coming to the states it entered into army service in 1954 and was the cargo version  not FFW fitted for wireless

[ruxy]

Pat Ware's book  "Quarter Ton"  -  the many photographs inc. 2/3 of the way through production show only two trafficators of semiphore type.  Page 208 & 209 clarify changes to lighting   , abt.  1954 a modification to th national 'Construction and use regulations' 

QUOTE.

The FV1802 prototypes, together with a number of vehicles in use by BAOR were also fitted with flashing indicators at front and rear .  (NB note use of words flashing indicators  , not trafficators - that I believe semiphore were worded , so I am uncertain just what the author was getting at  ?  ). I doubt if he was getting into pedantics.

[wally dugan]

The  FV 18O2A prototype or box champ did indeed have flasher type indicators the lighting on champs did change the rear trumpet style tail lights and  replaced by the round screw in glass type as seen on later land rovers  also the same style indicators were fitted. BAOR modification  MOD 1  fit semiphores MOD 5 electric 24 volt trafficators as l pointed out l never saw them but l did see the later type

Edited November 14, 2023 by wally dugan

[Noel7]

12 hours ago, ruxy said:

NB note use of words flashing indicators  , not trafficators - that I believe semiphore were worded , so I am uncertain just what the author was getting at  ?

I don't know about military vehicles in this context, but new build civilian cars started to change from semaphore trafficators to modern type flashing indicators around the end of 1954, presumably as a result of a change to C & U Regs. Semaphores were usually fitted into the central body pillar on each side, and were quite short, so although they were illuminated [rather feebly and they didn't flash] they were not particularly easy to see, and were not commonly fitted to larger vehicles because of visibility issues. Flashing indicators were fitted in pairs front and rear, as currently, so were much more versatile and more visible.

Hope this helps.

[fv1609]

The replacement of existing tail lamp with by stop/tail lamp was authorised in EMEI WHEELED VEHICLES D 577 (BAOR) Mod Instr No.4

Fitting medium 24v trafficators  Mod Istr No.5

Note that the above are EMEIs not EMERs

But Mod Instr No.5 was the BAOR implementation of EMER WHEELED VEHICLES D 577 Mod Instr No. 43

[wally dugan]

a picture of the champ FV 1802A you can make out the round indicators just below the side light on the face of the wing when they first came out the lens was white

[ruxy]

5 hours ago, Noel7 said:

I don't know about military vehicles in this context, but new build civilian cars started to change from semaphore trafficators to modern type flashing indicators around the end of 1954, presumably as a result of a change to C & U Regs. Semaphores were usually fitted into the central body pillar on each side, and were quite short, so although they were illuminated [rather feebly and they didn't flash] they were not particularly easy to see, and were not commonly fitted to larger vehicles because of visibility issues. Flashing indicators were fitted in pairs front and rear, as currently, so were much more versatile and more visible.

Hope this helps.

I recall my old man forever fiddling with his 'spare' set of semaphore trafficators , the mechanical parts (ISTR the amber arm lens illuminated. This would be about 1958 (I recalling moving house with it soon after obtaining) . It was a Bedford CA van , earlier he had a couple of Ford Pop. type vans - can't heve been these as I recall his fiddling at the new house.

[ruxy]

1 minute ago, ruxy said:

I recall my old man forever fiddling with his 'spare' set of semaphore trafficators , the mechanical parts (ISTR the amber arm lens illuminated. This would be about 1958 (I recalling moving house with it soon after obtaining) . It was a Bedford CA van , earlier he had a couple of Ford Pop. type vans - can't heve been these as I recall his fiddling at the new house.

The CA van must have been new abt. 1955, my old man purchased it second-hand , fitted side windows and seats in back - sort of a poor man's Dormobile  !  IIRC there was a tax to be paid on window conversions for a few years after new.

 

[10FM68]

As I recall, there was a half-way house for indicators with a kit which could enable the side and tail/brake lights to be flashed - there had to be a visible flashing lamp on the dashboard.  My father had such a set-up on his 1954 Hillman Husky.  I don't know if it is still the case, but it meant that, for a very long time, indicators could be amber or white at the front and amber or red at the back.  I think the same applied, though for longer, in the USA where the amber indicators took longer to become popular.

[Terra1936]

Were they in service in Germany and then sold there?