Left hand wheel nut threads

[sprocket316]

Might sound like a silly question, but having snapped a 1/2" drive socket extension today whilst trying to remove a 28mm wheel nut off the n/s/r of a 1985 ex MOD FMW tug, can I presume that it would be a standard right hand thread ? axle is a Hamworthy. The o/s/r nuts came off with no problem, I have come across left hand threads before....but nowhere near as late as 1985 !

I'm presuming it is right hand thread....and that I should really have found my 3/4" gear !

Any comments welcome thanks.

[john1950]

28 mm is 3/4 drive territory. there should be thread visible outside of the nut, try a known nut on that or see if you can make out the direction of the thead. You may have to try the nut back to front if they are chamfered or have captive washers.

[sprocket316]

Thanks for that, I knew I was pushing my luck with the 1/2", I'd been spoilt with the o/s/r nuts and thought I could get away with it again. There's only a fraction of thread showing, hence it's difficult to make out the direction, I'm sure the 3/4" drive will sort them out....one way or another !

[Zero-Five-Two]

Left hand thread wheel studs quite often have an 'L' stamped into the end, also the nuts can have a cut accross the hexagon points about half way down.

[sprocket316]

Thanks Rob, there was/is no "L" stamped on the end, and no cut half way down, this is pure operator error and has taught me not to use a piece of scaffolding pipe on a 1/2" extension bar....even though it worked on the offside nuts !

[64EK26]

Hi

For really stuck wheel nuts etc  I use a 3/4" drive torque multiplier, no more standing and jumping up an down on a scaffold bar.  Do not use a torque muliplier for tightening them up as the torques they can apply are enormous and can shear the wheel studs.

As noted above left hand threads normally have an L stamped on the nuts

Also I have found that slightly tightening a nut before undoing it often helps to get them freed more easily

Cheers

Richard

[Zero-Five-Two]

3/4" drive is more like it for that size of nut. 

Just an extra thought, 28mm is an odd size, I would bet money it is more like 5/8" Whitworth which is actually  27 and a bit.  So your 28mm socket might be a bit sloppy, be careful how much jumping on the scaffold bar you do, in case it slips off.

Militant wheel nuts are the same size, you tighten them up to 350 - 400 Nm  

[sprocket316]

Thanks Richard, I guess I'm a bit of a caveman, I've never had the pleasure of a torque multiplier. I did try to tighten the nuts first, but had no success. I can't think of any machine I've had before thats had 28mm wheel nuts, I've had larger and obviously smaller....but I don't recall 28mm !  You've got me thinking now re the multiplier, I'm getting to old for standing on scaffolding pipes ten foot up in the air.

[sprocket316]

Once again, thanks Rob, 28mm (as I've only just mentioned above) is the first time I've come across one, but it is a genuine 28mm, I've measured it with a micrometer and it fits perfectly snug inside the six sided 28mm socket, funny thing is that I actually used a 1 1/8AF socket on the offside nuts with a little bit of play....and they came undone !

Neither the 28mm or 1 1/8"AF socket with 1/2" drive would touch the n/s nuts though, I fully expect to loosen them with the 3/4" gear, then I can finally get to see what is (or isn't) going on in the Hamworthy axle brake department.

Thanks for the tips.

[sprocket316]

I notice that torque multipliers are available from £40 upwards, will these low end 3/4" multipliers really do the job on 28mm nuts that haven't budged for at least ten years ?  I'm prepared to give it a go with one of these, it sounds far more civilised than performing circus acts on scaffolding bars....but only if it works !

Any thoughts on "low end" torque multipliers (and others) gladly appreciated.

[andym]

"I have come across left hand threads before...but nowhere near as late as 1985 ! "

My 1992 RB44 uses them on the near side wheels,  although I've never understood the logic behind it.

Andy

[andym]

Incidentally, in my experience applying large amounts of steady torque isn't the way to break a sticky thread (and torque multipliers are designed for doing things up, not undoing them).   Using a decent length bar on the socket and bouncing the head of a sledgehammer off it is far more effective as the shock breaks the "lock" without wrecking the stud.

Andy

[sprocket316]

Hi Andy, I've read about nearside nut movement, never experienced it myself, that's why I was curious about mine when I couldn't budge them, yet the offside came off no problem.

It's decision time now for me, do I go torque multiplier or persevere with extender bars etc ?

[sprocket316]

Andy, only just got your second message, I was under the illusion that torque multipliers were for undoing nuts....and not for tightening them !

I agree with you about the shock treatment though.

[64EK26]

Hi – I think I have misled you a bit…

Torque multipliers can be used for both undoing and doing up nuts. I have a cheap torque multiplier which has a high gearing ratio (1:78) so it fairly easy to over tighten, i.e. 1Nm in and 78Nm is applied (hence my comment earlier).  They are relatively compact so for changing wheels in the field they are fine, as you don’t need to have an ‘industrial’ size torque wench or breaker bar. Torque multipliers are available with different gear ratios, from 1:3 upwards and decent ones are very expensive.

When I got my MW for restoration, I could not remove the nearside wheel nuts, even when using a 3/4" drive and bouncing up and down on a 6 foot bit of scaffolding. An industrial electric impact hammer also had no effect; the last resort was a cheap torque multiplier which did the trick. Industrial electric impact hammers are expensive and the air driven ones need to be of high quality and use a lot of air.

I agree with andym, that it is best to ‘break’ the lock first by ‘shocking’ it, you may still need to apply a considerable torque to fully undo the nut if it is very rusty.

Not sure where you live; and if the vehicle is moveable (by the way vehicle are you working on), you may be better off taking it to your local garage/tyre fitters and let them slacken them for you using and industrial air impact gun. You could also try a mobile tyre fitters. I did this, before I got my ‘gadgets’  when trying to get  some old land rover spilt rims apart, they had rusted solid.

Cheers

Richard

[sprocket316]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for message, I do understand that torque multipliers can be used for undoing and tightening nuts (with care). If I was to take the vehicle on the road, I could possibly be jailed for life, the brakes work a little bit....on a good day !  The reason I'm removing the wheels is so that I can inspect the back axle to see what isn't working in the brakes department.

Mobile tyre fitter might be a possibility, but I hate to be defeated. Vehicle is ex MOD FMW tug (small but weighty), I'll attach a photo of the offside hub.

Edited March 22, 2019 by sprocket316

[MatchFuzee]

Have you tried heat? 

[ruxy]

28mm  socket  is only 2 thou. bigger across the hex. than  5/8" Whit  /  11/16 BS ,  it could be metric but 28 is not a preferred size like 22 , 24 & 27mm .  However - I would not expect a preferred hex. size on a wheel lug nut as often the nut hex. is larger than a normal nut hex. for the stud dia.  

In metric wheel studs  , you can expect a finer thread pitch than the nominal accepted common fine pitch used on bolting / studding .  I suppose the same is a possibility with UNF but less so with BSF.  

[radiomike7]

1 hour ago, sprocket316 said:

Hi Richard,

  The reason I'm removing the wheels is so that I can inspect the back axle to see what isn't working in the brakes department.

 

Are you sure the brake is at the hub, it looks more like a reduction hub with a wet brake within the diff housing like a tractor?

[Sprocket613]

Hi, you’re quite right, but I need access to bleed the brake system and to make a start on tidying things up. My internet is down at the moment, so having to reply off the mobile phone....which is a bit of a pain ! Apologies for short reply.

[sprocket316]

Sorry for slow responses, my internet on the p.c. went down for 15 hours, thanks to all of you for the suggestions and tips. Got to go out and earn a living for a few days now, but will hopefully have good news re this minor (but irritating) issue fairly soon.

[sprocket316]

Success, all nuts now removed and wheel off. I've gone for too many years too remember with tools that have done the job in hand, but sometimes not necessarily the exact correct tool. The bottom line of this saga was that the 28mm nuts needed 3/4" drive (not 1/2"), the socket needed to be six sided and not twelve (although I did remove five nuts with the twelve sided socket), the sixth nut only came free with the newly acquired six sided socket (the twelve sided was slipping) and 3/4" drive 24" extender bar....with a section of scaffolding pipe added !

I've never really had the need for 3/4" gear before, I've now added one or two pieces to it, I may only use it now and again....but it's nice to have !

Thanks to all for your input.

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by sprocket316

[64EK26]

Hi

Glad you got them off OK

Cheers

Richard

[sprocket316]

Thanks Richard,

I forgot to mention that I spent a while tapping each nut, after having let them have a couple of hours of sunbathing in todays lovely weather, the final awkward nut still went with a cracking sound when it finally freed off, then it was a tedious case of....two steps forward one step backward as I wound all six off !

[john1950]

Which hand were they? Left or Right, being metric I would guess they were Right handed.

Edited March 31, 2019 by john1950
addition

[sprocket316]

You're quite right John, they were indeed Right handed, although I've removed many standard commercial vehicle wheelnuts much bigger than that with purpose made equipment, the 28mm size was kind of "inbetweenie land" for me and a size I don't recall coming across before.  Don't suppose it helped matters by the fact that they hadn't been disturbed for many years and probably been tightened up with an impact gun....or Hercules !

Anyhow, the bottom line is, I can now get access to the rear braking system, and the more I can now see of the tyre....the more frightening it looks !