fuel injection k60 K60 starter problems

[Glennaagesen]

Hi

Anyone who has experience in the K60 power pack, fuel injection problems? 

Case is that the pack in my FV434 has got problems when I start it up. Previously it started without any problems, but lately, I need to spray diesel starter liquid into the air intake, to make it start. Once started, and warm, it runs without problem. I’m suspicious about the conditions of the fuel pump and consider to change to a renovated one. 

Anyone with advice or experiences of the problem ?

Regards Glenn

Edited February 19, 2018 by Glennaagesen

[David Herbert]

When you say you suspect the fuel pump do you mean the electric one in the tank or the injection pump on the side of the engine beside the driver?  Both are actually remarkably reliable but.....

There is a filter on the intake to the electric pump. To get to it you must drain the fuel tank (up to 460L) and remove the pump and filter through the access panel under the crane operator's step. It is very common to find the filter blocked with black gunge which can be cleaned off with some effort and the filter reused. This is not exactly a fun job so before you do it, it is worth checking the element in the filter on the engine and before replacing it (best with a new one) run the electric pump and see how much fuel is delivered (catching it in a suitable container).There should be quite a lot.

If you think the fuel is getting to the fuel injection pump then the most common fault there is that the rack sticks. Usually you notice this because the engine won't stop from the switch on the switch panel and has to be stopped with the red emergency stop pedal in front of the steering levers. Sometimes this doesn't return easily and the engine won't start. Also the electric engine stop that is controlled by the 'ignition' switch is a solenoid that can itself seize up. It has two wires controlling it. One is powered up during the start and the other maintains it in the run position once the engine is running. Luckily this solenoid is easy to get to and test. Unfortunately there are not many spare ones to be found. If the rack is sticking it is usually possible to free it with a lot of waggling and WD40. There is a video of the FIP solenoid working on YouTube which shows why you shouldn't play with the switch and have your finger in the mechanism at the same time - it is quite powerfull !

It will be worth you joining the FV432 forum. In the FV434 section there is an excelent thread on how to remove the fuel tank if you have to, and lots about what I have mentioned above. All the important manuals can be downloaded there for free.

I expect you know but it is critical that you keep the govenor oil topped up. Use red auto transmisson oil (Dextron). The actual transmisson uses ISO30 engine oil (as does all the rest of the vehicle except the final drives next to the sprockets). If the govenor runs out of oil the engine will go to full throttle and destroy itself very quickly which is not good !

I hope some of this helps

David

Edited February 19, 2018 by David Herbert

[Glennaagesen]

Hi David

Thanks a lot for the feedback. 

To clarify, I am talking about the fuel injection pump. 

I have tried to bypass the actual fuel pump, and see no changes. Im getting a lot of fuel flow to the filter on the engine. Once the machine is running, I can give all the power it needs, and no problems occur. That initially tells me that fuel flow is ok.

Im wondering about the fuel pressure at start up. If I will have a leak, im not able to build the needed pressure in the engine, make it run. Once I spray the power fluid, it starts, and run if I keep Rpm on high level. Once its varm, it can go to normal indue again and from there run "normal".

Now you mention, I realize that im no longer able to shut it down, unless I use the emergency. I can no longer switch of with the electric cut out. But how can that have anything to do with the problems to make it run?

Im suspisiuse about the injection pumps ability to build the pressure I need for start it. What you think about that?

I see that Marcus Glenn has a renovated injection pump available. Im considering to try to arrange this one and simply change. Question is, will it "kill" my problem?

Thanks.

[David Herbert]

Hi Glenn

Sounds like fuel supply is ok.

As I said there are two coils in the FIP solenoid. One powerfull one that operates on the reduced voltage available during cranking. The other weaker one to maintain it once the engine has started. If only the seccond coil is working the engine will not start but will run if you start it on a spray can. The 'off' position on the switch just cuts power to these coils and a small amount of stickyness in the mechanism will stop the rack returning to the stop position so the engine keeps running untill you press the pedal which has much more force available. You cannot just use a stronger return spring on the rack as the solenoid has to be able to overcome it with its limited pulling power.

I think you have two problems here: A generaly sticky mechanism preventing it from stopping and a non operational coil in the FIP solenoid (this could be damaged wiring). No need to invest in a whole FIP yet. The rest of the FIP is very unlikely to ever give trouble though obviously anything is possible.

Can I suggest that you put your location into your user profile, then we can see if we can come and help you personally or if it is worth suggesting sources etc that might be on the other side of the world.

David

PS. What is your army registration number and hull number (on a very small plate welded above the rear registration number plate). Mine is 02 FA 23, Hull 322 (for some reason the '3' is upside down!)

Edited February 19, 2018 by David Herbert

[andym]

I'd agree with David about the FIP solenoid, it's a pretty standard problem. And as he says, take a look at the FV430 Forum!

Andy

[Glennaagesen]

Great stuff. Thanks. 

As I can see on the movie on YouTube I need to check if it’s pulling. If not, that’s my problem. In case it pulls, and still doesn’t start. Then I will check “behind” the house. Do you know what I should look for in there?

cross my fingers that it’s the problem. 

Thanks

[Glennaagesen]

Hi

I believe I manage to locate the potential problem. It seems to be the solenoid that doesnt pull. It seems rusty, but there is no reaction at all. I guess when I spin the engine, the solinoid must pull immediately, right?

The fuse is intact so I guess I need to trouble shoot the wires. 

[sirhc]

I bought a solenoid to replace a dodgy one on a 432 we had. When I came to swap it I discovered a damaged wire on the existing one, connected it back up and it was fine after that. Sold the solenoid when we sold the 432 though so no longer have it.

 

Chris 

[daleheywoodtanks]

You could force the solenoid into the open position and put a nut under it to stop it returning, then try your starting and running procedure. If that works you will know you have a failed solenoid.

[Glennaagesen]

Hi guys

Got it to Work now. Works perfect. Stays in until I cut the power, and it runs back. I cleaned the fuel filter and checked the flow to injection pump. 

Now. Still doesn’t run... (without power spray). I’m wondering how it should work in the small mechanism that the solinoid pulls. The small housing on the back side of “Solinoid house” it seems to be working. But I’m not sure. 

[Glennaagesen]

[Glennaagesen]

[Glennaagesen]

2A8D65E8-E6CA-41E7-BDDF-7DD2857CD430.MOV

[Glennaagesen]

Hi 

I still did not manage to bring the engine alive. I have checked now the fuel flow thru the injection pump, and so far no problems. Fuel is running as should. 

I now draw my attention towards the injectors. Could they potential fail, bringing the pressure to the level I need?

Do I really need to take out the full pack, in order to get all 6 injectors out? Or you know a trick to do it while pack is still installed ?

Thanks and regards. 

[David Herbert]

It is very unlikely that the injectors are defective. Compared to a truck engine they simply do not get enough hours use to wear out. Can I suggest that you loosen one of the high pressure injector pipes, just a little, and see if there is actually any pressure when trying to start. I suspect there will be almost nothing, which leads back to the FIP solenoid and mechanism. Are you sure that the solenoid is pulling all the way when the starter motor is cranking ? There is much less voltage then which is why there are two coils in it.

Don't try resetting adjustments that worked ok before your problem started unless you are sure that they have come loose and changed themselves.

David

[Glennaagesen]

Hi David

I did that test already. On all 6 outputs, and it seems they work fine. The diesel is pumping on all. 

The solinoid is pulling all the way back. 

I will try to see if I can get one injector our, to check the condition and run a test on it. But they are for sure not easy to access. 

[Diana and Jackie]

Has anyone noticed the adjusting screw with green paint has been adjusted, so that the paint seal is broken?

Diana

[Glennaagesen]

Hi Diana

I noticed the same. But didn’t do anything about it. 

Since the engine ran without problems, till now where it’s not, it has been running maximum 3 hours. 

Does anyone know how to adjust, and what it does to the injection?

[Glennaagesen]

Anyone who can inform about the opening pressure for the injectors?

[andym]

15 minutes ago, Glennaagesen said:

Anyone who can inform about the opening pressure for the injectors?

It depends on the type fitted, but between 150 and 175 atmospheres according to the manual, in other words between 2250 and 2625 psi.

Are you saying that the engine now won't start at all?

Andy

[Glennaagesen]

Hi Andy 

Thanks for info. 

It will not start normally. One little zip of the starter spray in the air intake, and it runs. It stops when it gets close to idle. Then spray again to start it. Once it’s warm, it goes to idle and keeps idling. . 

Solinoid is working perfectly. Pulling and releasing. 

Now I have taken 3 injectors and will test the conditions. If it’s the problem, I will pull the other 3 also. 

[Diana and Jackie]

Cylinder pressure based on the spray being more volatile than diesel therefore lower compression needed?

Diana

[Glennaagesen]

Hi Diana

You refer to low compression on cylinders?

Thats a complete different, seruose, issue then. 

[Diana and Jackie]

I am not a K60 expert - an interesting engine, with opposed pistons and a 2 stroke! I would take some compression readings since you have the injectors out and see what comes from that.

My experience of 2 strokes is - UGH ! What I do remember though is a worn cylinder hard to start until warm.

You do of course have the manual ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K60-Rolls-Royce-K60-Workshop-manual-Publication-No-2291/253378490234?hash=item3afe88ef7a:g:PwUAAOxyDLZR-97Y

As it specifically mentions cold start!

Diana

Edited February 21, 2018 by Diana and Jackie
Added further info.

[David Herbert]

Mine will cold start quite easily at minus 2 degrees C (at least it did a couple of weeks ago) as long as the battery is good. Smokes a bit more but not too much cranking.

You say that it won't idle when it is cold. Obviously it is a matter of degree but they never do. That is why you have a hand throttle. I usually start mine with about half throttle and then release it when it starts to rev. There is no automatic compensation for cold starting/running. It is up to you to use the throttle to get it to go. Result is lots of smoke and noise - GREAT !

David

PS Just thought: There is an engine switch panel for the crane opperator just inside his hatch. I doubt that it is possible but might be worth checking that the switches move easily and are not stopping the engine in spite of the driver's switch.

Edited February 21, 2018 by David Herbert