Jessie The Jeep Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) I replaced all the valves on my Hotchkiss over the winter of 2014/15, and fitted a new head gasket from Universal Jeep Supplies. All was well over the 2015 season, clocking up about 680 miles in that Jeep without any problems with the engine, and no leaks. It always overflowed water from the rad cap after a long hot run, and I just got into the habit of topping up the water/anti-freeze every so often. Over the winter of 2015/16, I ordered a new radiator cap from Universal to try and stop the overflow, as I suspected the old Hotchkiss cap spring was possibly a bit tired. The Jeep didn't do much running over the winter. The last run out was late November and then the occasional short run swapping the Jeeps side to side in the garage when moving stuff around or to use the GPW in the snow. So little running and only short runs not getting very hot. The new radiator cap was fitted on or after that last run out, and now checking the Jeep over for the York Crank Up this coming Sunday, I've found the head gasket is letting water into No 4 cylinder. 680 miles isn't much on the new gasket, but I suppose they do fail..... However, after posting my woes on Facebook, another local Jeep owner reported the exact same sequence of events, new rad cap, then head gasket failure, using parts from the same supplier within a similar time frame. I was wondering if anyone else had suffered this apparently linked failure and whether they knew if the radiator caps were being manufactured with a spring pressure too high? Of course it could be just coincidence. I've not had any other problems with parts from Universal and was wondering if there had been a bad batch of gaskets, or radiator caps with a spring tension too high. Thoughts anyone?? Edited April 11, 2016 by Jessie The Jeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey089 Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I replaced all the valves on my Hotchkiss over the winter of 2014/15, and fitted a new head gasket from Universal Jeep Supplies. All was well over the 2015 season, clocking up about 680 miles in that Jeep without any problems with the engine, and no leaks. It always overflowed water from the rad cap after a long hot run, and I just got into the habit of topping up the water/anti-freeze every so often. Over the winter of 2015/16, I ordered a new radiator cap from Universal to try and stop the overflow, as I suspected the old Hotchkiss cap spring was possibly a bit tired. The Jeep didn't do much running over the winter. The last run out was late November and then the occasional short run swapping the Jeeps side to side in the garage when moving stuff around or to use the GPW in the snow. So little running and only short runs not getting very hot. The new radiator cap was fitted on or after that last run out, and now checking the Jeep over for the York Crank Up this coming Sunday, I've found the head gasket is letting water into No 4 cylinder. 680 miles isn't much on the new gasket, but I suppose they do fail..... However, after posting my woes on Facebook, another local Jeep owner reported the exact same sequence of events, new rad cap, then head gasket failure, using parts from the same supplier within a similar time frame. I was wondering if anyone else had suffered this apparently linked failure and whether they knew if the radiator caps were being manufactured with a spring pressure too high? Of course it could be just coincidence. I've not had any other problems with parts from Universal and was wondering if there had been a bad batch of gaskets, or radiator caps with a spring tension too high. Thoughts anyone?? I replaced my rad cap which I bought from Cliff its been fitted a while now covered approx 2000 miles without a problem, thats after a head and block grind and new head gasket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 That is a bit unfortunate! I would be surprised if it was the radiator cap that failed - if the spring were that strong it would probably burst the radiator long before the head gasket. Is there any chance that the head was not torqued down enough after its first run? I cannot remember whether you mentioned doing it or not? trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie The Jeep Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 Yes, it was torqued down after fitting and after running a bit and then managed 680 miles through last season without issue until the new cap was fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Good, I would have been surprised if you hadn't because you are meticulous, but I thought I should ask. I am a bit worried that it has been losing fluid for a while, suggesting that the leak has been there for a while or that it might have lost water and locally overheated. trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie The Jeep Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 After the top end rebuild, there was no sign of leaks around the outside of the gasket, or into the engine, or I would have expected white smoke at start up as I did yesterday and today. The only water was dripping from the rad overflow pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) This is not meant to be alarmist but it would be worth checking both the head and the block for any sign of a fine crack it may only leak when hot and may be almost invisible so go over them both with a magnifying glass. I guess as you know you have a problem on No 4 did you do a compression test and leak down test before you took the head off?. Loss of coolant can but not always be an indication of pressuring the cooling system with combustion gasses did you see any sign of fine bubbles in the header tank after a run for example. Your comment about the new rad cap is interesting in so much as if the old one was leaking pressure then it may have acted like a relief valve the new cap may well have shown up a problem that you have had long term. Pete Edited April 12, 2016 by Pete Ashby extra words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 It may pay you to drive to a garage with a combustion gas leak detection kit + radiator pressure tester , could save a lot of hassle. Assuming no cracks , lots depends on maintenance of the block deck & cylinder head surface milled finish if found to be flat , you need gasket grip. Was it a good gasket - I think I would have gone for something USA , like a FEL-PRO (Federal Mogul) ? If somebody has cleaned faces with a drag scraper or similar rather than a soak-off , then a better budget job chance would be a modern gasket with elastomer sealant beads + clean head/block faces with meths. What type of gasket construction did you use ? Regardless of deck / head RA finish , both fresh or a mix fresh cut / old , a chat on the subject at Cleasby Crank counter may pay and let them supply the head gasket . With modern cars due to time / cost if it goes wrong , I normally use a genuine manufacturer head gasket or the OEM if established. BGA Automotive from factors normally supply good aftermarket stuff in their kits but I doubt if they supply side-valve Jeep , arguably in odd cases some of their stuff falls short. BGA also supply top manufacturer OEM parts at low cost too. There are total rubbish Chinese cardboard head gaskets out there on eBay etc. as well as brand rip-off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I am with Pete Ashby on this - unless the replacement gasket was made of cheese then I would be looking very closely indeed for cracks. Even tiny ones can cause mayhem - the picture below which I have posted recently on another thread shows two hairline cracks that killed a Standard block. Well worth trying a dye penetrant crack detection kit on both head and block. Then there is flatness to worry about. I know this sounds a bit daft but is the gasket actually the right one? Once upon a time we had a problem with a later Hurricane engine only to discover that the gasket supplied was actually for a Go Devil and whilst everything looked perfect on the block (all the holes lined up) it was in fact far from perfect when it came to the head side of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie The Jeep Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Some time ago, I got into the habbit of photographing new parts for the Jeep folder. I checked my Jeep folder and the gasket that was fitted was a Fel-pro one. So it was a good quality make. Working space was tight as the Jeep was on the wrong side of the garage. I was squished between the Jeep trailer in front of Jessie, the Ford GPW along side, and a suspended floor just above the engine bay. Normally for engine work, I'd swap the Jeeps side to side, but that involves moving lots of cars and my aircraft trailer and turning both Jeeps around as well as swapping side to side, and I'd only just done that to put Jessie on the right side to get it out at the weekend! Anyway, it's all back together again now. I stripped it this morning, and but the time it was in bits, the postie arrived with the new gasket. There was no sign of cracks, burning or other damage. I suspect that after the last head refit, I haven't kept on torquing the head down for long enough as it bedded in and settled. Over the 680 miles driving since fitting, this has perhaps set up an area in the gasket that has slowly reduced its sealing effect. When I've put the new radiator cap on, the increased pressure in the system has found the weak point and allowed water to seep through. It hadn't failed allowing gallons of water in, but when I parked and switched off, I could hear sizzling, and when I pulled the plugs and turned it on the starter handle, the few squirts of water I got out wasn't a fountain, but more like a potted plant water sprayer. So it's been run, cooled and torqued again, then put away for the night. I'll go for a couple of drives tomorrow, and torque it again after each when it has cooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Torque while it's still hot Steve Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie The Jeep Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 That's not what Jeffrey Engineering said yesterday when I ordered the gasket from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) Your choice, I was taught to torque down in two stages cold, run up to operating temperature turn off and torque again to specified value while still hot then run for 20 miles or so and do it again cold and then hot to specified max torque and then recheck at 100 miles. Pete Edited April 12, 2016 by Pete Ashby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I think with any flatty , in fact any old classic - I would be a bit extra proactive to eliminate possibility of trapping any air when filling with coolant - the overnight stand will assist this , I would treat like a known difficult head job (like a Fiat Punto). 1. Trickle the coolant in very very slowly , just like re-filling a power steering reservoir (do the bleed procedure badly and aerate the fluid or by bad filling , a overnight stand will clear the trapped bubbles). 2. Work the pump impeller , turn the Vee belt by hand / starting handle. 3. Remove , spark plugs and barr engine over lots with starter motor before firing up. 4. Jump up and down on the bumper and rock the car port/starboard. Of course , you don't have to remember the most important bit , you don't have a heater LoL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Quick question - did you test the thermostat? Ruxys comment about the Fiat Punto reminded me; my daughter did a head gasket on a Punto, got it replaced then it went again after 300 miles. So they did it a second time. 300 miles later it went again. The garage were getting a bit grumpy now but did it a third time but said that they could no longer guarantee their own work. I got it back to check the thing and was looking for air in the system by my usual trick of squeezing the top hose while the engine warmed up. There seemed to be plenty of fluid in the top hose but I was a bit surprised when the electric fan came on, yet the top hose was still cool. Now that's a thermostat or water pump, so I let it cool down and took the thermostat out. Sure enough it was staying closed even when popped in a pan of nearly boiling water. The garage refused to believe me when I phoned as they had put a new thermostat in when they did the first head job, and it took a repeat of the demo in their office with the help of the office kettle to convince them. Now there is a big difference between a Punto and a jeep, but I suppose the moral of this story is take nothing for granted..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Quick question - did you test the thermostat? Ruxys comment about the Fiat Punto reminded me; my daughter did a head gasket on a Punto, got it replaced then it went again after 300 miles. So they did it a second time. 300 miles later it went again. The garage were getting a bit grumpy now but did it a third time but said that they could no longer guarantee their own work. I got it back to check the thing and was looking for air in the system by my usual trick of squeezing the top hose while the engine warmed up. There seemed to be plenty of fluid in the top hose but I was a bit surprised when the electric fan came on, yet the top hose was still cool. Now that's a thermostat or water pump, so I let it cool down and took the thermostat out. Sure enough it was staying closed even when popped in a pan of nearly boiling water. The garage refused to believe me when I phoned as they had put a new thermostat in when they did the first head job, and it took a repeat of the demo in their office with the help of the office kettle to convince them. Now there is a big difference between a Punto and a jeep, but I suppose the moral of this story is take nothing for granted..... Fair question Paul however I'd expect the temperature gauge to be off the end stop before the gasket blew, the Go Devil engine measures head temperature on the block side of the stat so if it's not opening the gauge will let you know pretty quick. :shocked: Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owl Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 head gasket failure the rad cap acts as relief valve head gasket failure often produces noticeable symptoms before the actual failure the reason is important for to keep an eye on engine . making note of any unusual engine oil or coolant consumption engine running erratically misfires frequent overheating a noticeable sweet small etc there has some very good answers given and all sound the distant covered is not a lot ive had a look through the thread of your engine rebuild and good reading especially in the room you have i question the use of gasket sealant on a cylinder head dry fit only .the use of sealant is more of a temp fix . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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