Colour change

[Roy Larkin]

This should help to sort the confusion over colour and colour change in WW1.

 

421 Coy ASC (4 MAC) started to repaint ambulances on 2 January 1915. This was under orders of CO MACs who considered that green was too conspicuous and that ambulances should be repainted grey.

 

So, we have lorries going from grey to green and ambulances from green to grey, both for the same reason and both about the same time.

 

Nothing like a bit of clarity to solve a mystery, is there?

[Minesweeper]

This should help to sort the confusion over colour and colour change in WW1.

 

421 Coy ASC (4 MAC) started to repaint ambulances on 2 January 1915. This was under orders of CO MACs who considered that green was too conspicuous and that ambulances should be repainted grey.

 

So, we have lorries going from grey to green and ambulances from green to grey, both for the same reason and both about the same time.

 

Nothing like a bit of clarity to solve a mystery, is there?

 

 

Love it!

 

Tony

[Roy Larkin]

Nothing new on the actual colour but 319 Coy ASC (1 Heavy repair Shop) first started repainting lorries after repairs on 29 October 1914. Prior to that date lorries were coming out of workshops in original livery so it looks like the repainting can be positively identified as starting on 29th.

[nz2]

Do you know if the original grey colour was the same tone as used for navy ships? A common supply?

 

Doug

[Lauren Child]

Any ideas on colours for ww1 motorbikes?

[Roy Larkin]

Do you know if the original grey colour was the same tone as used for navy ships? A common supply?

 

Doug

 

Doug, it might well be. More likely it was just grey. I suspect that whoever the supplier, every batch was slightly different.

[Roy Larkin]

Any ideas on colours for ww1 motorbikes?

 

Motorcycles would have been painted the same as the lorries, so 'service colour', 'standard colour', 'service green' are about the best descriptions found so far. Paint was mixed, sometimes by the manufacturers, sometimes by HRSs, sometimes by companies locally, and batches of paint would have varied slightly in the mix depending on availablility and quality of that available, so no two batches were the same.

[Charawacky]

Here is the Phelon and Moore still with it's original WW1 paint scheme intact, possibly 1915/16.

[nz2]

Thanks Roy for the input.

I've been looking over the parts here of WW1 period vehicles and trying to get a colour match to swatch codes. Wheels have the best paint retention although some chassis do hide bits of paint. Aside from washing the paint areas down some areas have been gently rubbed down with wet and dry sandpaper to revel the progressive layers of paint. The swatches used are BS 381. The grey paint applied first on a 1916 Leyland, appears to be Dark Admiralty Grey. Progressive layers appear as Dark Sea Grey and Medium Sea Grey. These latter two colours continue on into the 1920's being found on latter chassis wheels.

Thornycroft pre WW1 have the colour Medium Sea Grey moving on latter to Dark Sea Grey.

Aircraft grey is also in there as a layer as well as being found as well on other mechanical items of the time.

 

The variation between the dark shades of grey is small, as is the same with the light shades. This would follow on from Roy's comment to the colour blending being not a specific measurement.

These colours are only the lower layers, the more recent upper paint layers were not matched as they would be from latter commercial use colour schemes.

I don't have a battle ship or the like to compare paint samples to, but considering the names used one does suspect a naval link to the original colour.

It was an interesting afternoon trying to take these samples. A day was chosen without strong direct sunlight, giving a diffuse light without glare, for matching colour. I have also scrapped off paint samples and placed them in envelopes as a future record.

Doug

[Charawacky]

There are some rather good 'Dazzle' painted ships the colour of which is replicated on surviving Picasso type paintings

However I guess you probably in need one of the more dull ship paint schemes to sample!

 

http://www.retronaut.com/2010/07/dazzle-ships-1914-1918/

 

On a more serious and interesting camouflage note I was told of a report which describes a raised service road close to the front line which was screened to prevent snipers picking off drivers and solders etc,

What they used for screening was not disclosed, cloth?

 

Tom

[Minesweeper]

Hessian, apparently!

 

Tony

[nz2]

There are some rather good 'Dazzle' painted ships the colour of which is replicated on surviving Picasso type paintings

However I guess you probably in need one of the more dull ship paint schemes to sample!

What an idea Tom!

An interesting way to match colours! Visit an art gallery and expect the staff to allow me to get up to a Picasso and check colour swatches against the original.

Or are you suggesting Picasso used war surplus paints?

 

Just looking at photos of those patterns as used in painting the warships make my eyes loose focus.

Doug

[Lauren Child]

 

Just looking at photos of those patterns as used in painting the warships make my eyes loose focus.

Doug

 

You and me both - the 3D effect on some of them is quite incredible.

[Charawacky]

Hi Doug

Not as daft as you might think:

Pity you are not looking for the correct colour for an ambulance.

 

 

Above Photograph of members of the Women's Camouflage Corps applying disruptive (or dazzle) camouflage to an ambulance (c1918)

[nz2]

Am I seeing things ; The white area leading from the door towards the roof, is that a Picasso type design of a naked lady. I see a long leg, body and breast.

Then much of Picasso's work was far more abstract and broken up about the canvas.

Getting back to the true nature of this Forum; Least these ladies are painting on canvas

Doug

[Charawacky]

Am I seeing things ; The white area leading from the door towards the roof, is that a Picasso type design of a naked lady. I see a long leg, body and breast.

Then much of Picasso's work was far more abstract and broken up about the canvas.

Getting back to the true nature of this Forum; Least these ladies are painting on canvas

Doug

Hi Doug,

 

I am not a cubist critic myself, however you seem to have a flair for it so how do you interpret this painting?

 

Perhaps identifying the truck manufacturer may be easier?

 

Tom

 

[nz2]

An interesting vehicle from the photo. I would say it European, German,Belgium, Swiss or similar area. I also thought of Tatra but the early trucks had a totally different bonnet shape, while the cars of the time follow this radiator design. ( Researching latter Tatra imports in NZ, so some data is on hand)

I would say it's Saurer or Berna.

Doug

[nz2]

I have located a couple of photos showing the same design of bar protecting the radiator. Images from The Saurer Museum collection. The images are from a different model, a smaller vehicle with a lighter radiator pattern.

Doug

[Charawacky]

Dazzling in progress

 

 

[nz2]

Tom,

Further to thread #16 ID of truck.

Came across a photos of a Peugeot 1525 with similar radiator and curved bar.

However what was made by who under licence.

Doug

[simon king]

Picasso had his fans in a later war as well

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CyuojPrvhkE/UpechritUDI/AAAAAAAAAvs/z7kB6nr39ds/s1600/StuG+40+Ausf.G.jpg

[Roy Larkin]

This might go some way to establishing that trying to pin down a particular colour for WW1 vehicles is impossible.

 

319 Coy ASC (1 Heavy repair Shop), Paris recorded in mid-January 1918 that the painting of lorries after overhaul was very poor due to the paint supplied being 'of poor colour and very gritty. Matter taken up with OC Gas Works to see how to improve the colour.'

 

The Gas Works was at Gennvilliers and was the parking for wrecks coming into workshops at St Denis, and the completed vehicles that were waiting to be allocated.

[BosunAl]

" The swatches used are BS 381. The grey paint applied first on a 1916 Leyland, appears to be Dark Admiralty Grey. Progressive layers appear as Dark Sea Grey and Medium Sea Grey. These latter two colours continue on into the 1920's being found on latter chassis wheels.

Thornycroft pre WW1 have the colour Medium Sea Grey moving on latter to Dark Sea Grey.

Aircraft grey is also in there as a layer as well as being found as well on other mechanical items of the time."

 

Are these Humbrol piants or what?

 

Bosun Al

[BosunAl]

" The swatches used are BS 381. The grey paint applied first on a 1916 Leyland, appears to be Dark Admiralty Grey. Progressive layers appear as Dark Sea Grey and Medium Sea Grey. These latter two colours continue on into the 1920's being found on latter chassis wheels.

Thornycroft pre WW1 have the colour Medium Sea Grey moving on latter to Dark Sea Grey.

Aircraft grey is also in there as a layer as well as being found as well on other mechanical items of the time."

 

Are these Humbrol paints or what?

 

Bosun Al

[nz2]

The colour swatches used were from the supplier PPG. These are the type used for automotive and industrial colour selection and matching. I picked these up from a paint retailer who no longer handles industrial paints. The samples compared against were orginal, 100 and thereabout year old vehicles and parts, not models.

I also matched up a lightly faded colour on one of our vintage tractors that required a touch up, then passed the colour code on a automotive paint sprayer who made up the small quanity of colour as needed.

In the past, a small selection of paint has been scrapped off, or a panel taken in to the paint supplier for them to blend up a paint that matched. A time consuming but exacting process.

How the colour codes relate to model colours is a point I am unclear on.

Doug