introduction 1959 prototype Mini Mokes evaluated by the Army, RAF and RM

[59Prototype]

Hello

 

I've been researching the history of the early Mini Moke for nearly 30 years since acquiring a 1959 prototype and restoring it way back in the 1980s. Mine has the reg. 14 BT 18. Others that were made included 14 BT 17, for many years in the Beverley Museum but now in the Haynes Museum at Sparkford, and 20 BT 30 in private hands near Portsmouth. Other registrations included 14 BT 16, 07 RN 49 (Royal Marines) and 27 AE 03 (RAF) but I don’t know what happened to them. Have any of them survived I wonder?

 

More recently I have been trying to find out what the 4 digit stencilled white numbers on either side of the bonnet represented? Were they military numbers or had they been put on by BMC? So far I’ve found 6008, 6013 and 5950 in various photos. Might they have represented the relevant week of that particular year. e.g. 6008 was the 8^th week of 1960? At this stage I really have no idea.

 

Some of the Mokes were tested at the FVRDE, Chertsey. Some were used by the Army in the Bordon area.

 

The main differences between the 1959 prototypes and the Moke that went into production in 1964 were: bench seats, not individual seats, 948cc engine, not 848cc (850), petrol tank and battery behind the rear seat, not in the side. In addition the sides were not boxed in on the prototypes.

 

I would be pleased to hear from anyone who has any information on the prototype Mokes or maybe can remember seeing one way back in the early 1960s.

 

Graham Robinson

(Now retired and living in Brazil but for many years I lived and worked in Bournemouth)

 

email: Moke59Prototype@aol.com

[arcot1751]

Welcome to the HMVF Graham

[wally dugan]

HI GRAHAM welcome e mail sent

[Locolines]

Welcome to the HMVF

[wally dugan]

HI

This is from the chertsey files on MOKES

 

chassis photo number

spl 433a 5950

spl 446a 5998 now allocated est number 6011

spl 453 am 6008

spl 465 am 6009

spl 466 am 6010

spl 446 a 6011 formerly 5998

spl 467 am 6012

spl 468 am 6013

spl 578 6286 S.W.B

spl748 6806

 

spl 468 am was the last one to leave chertsey on the 24/4/1969

 

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Tony B]

Welcome in.

[wally dugan]

HI TONY

Picture from the 1962 exhibits book RADE DID YOU NOTICE ITS LEFT HAND DRIVE

[Tony B]

Correct! And No. The last time I had anything to do with Moke's they were Aussie build used as hire cars in Jersey. Wern't the Austin Ant 4x4 and Triumph Pony about at the same time? I did have the Corgi Para Moke!

[Minesweeper]

I saw one in the MT Sheds at Bulford Camp - I think September 1960, whilst I was passing through there. It was the first one that I ever saw and had no idea what it was!

[wally dugan]

TONY what a good memory what about the BMC twini MOKE two engines the lightweight austin ant used 1100 car parts

one prototype moke and the twini where trailed in the USA by the military you are right about the pony and ant now whos

showing his age

 

REGARDS WALLY

[Tony B]

God! Yes, I'd forgotten about the twin engine craze! There was the 2CV version! As for age, I did drive the odd civvy Moke, great except in the rain, they did sometimes fill with water. A real 1960's cult car. The Prisoner, the Giraffe driven version, ah days of yoof!

[59Prototype]

Many thanks everyone for your warm welcome to this forum. I'm enthused!

 

Can I pick up on a few points that have already been made. I'm fascinated by the information from Chertsey on chassis numbers that Wally has posted. They already greatly add to the information that I have. Does that mean that FVRDE has more secrets to give up on the prototype Mokes? Is it possible to now link military registration numbers with those chassis numbers? Here they are again from Wally's post:

 

This is from the chertsey files on MOKES

 

chassis photo number

spl 433a 5950

spl 446a 5998 now allocated est number 6011

spl 453 am 6008

spl 465 am 6009

spl 466 am 6010

spl 446 a 6011 formerly 5998

spl 467 am 6012

spl 468 am 6013

spl 578 6286 S.W.B

spl748 6806

 

spl 468 am was the last one to leave chertsey on the 24/4/1969

 

I can identify some of the Mokes. 14 BT 17 (in the Haynes Museum) is SPL 446 and my own Moke 14 BT 18 is SPL 466. I'm confused by SPL 453 which I had always thought was 20 BT 30 the Moke that featured for a couple of years (1967/1968?) in the BBC Autopoints. (I remember well watching them on television. I was GLUED to the screen I can tell you! Marvellous stuff and much much better than current rubbish such as Top Gear [or Silly Boys Playing as I call it!]) However back to the chassis numbers. It now looks as though SPL 453 was the Royal Marines Moke, 07 RN 49 and not 20 BT 30. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

Incidentally I'm still baffled by the 4 digit number stenciled on the bonnet or engine bay side. What do they mean? Did the Army keep a record of the vehicle by this number and not by the registration number?

 

Moving on to the catalogue exhibit picture from the FVRDE Exhibition at Chertsey. Whilst I already have this picture from many years ago I had always thought it to be from the 1963 exhibition and not 1962. The catalogue entry for 1962 that I have is very similar but refers to Exhibit No. 3, not 4. Does anyone have the catalogues from 1962 and 1963 so that this can be checked out? Maybe the 2 catalogues were from 1961 and 1962 and not 1962 and 1963 as I had always thought. Whatever is someone able to clear this point up?

 

There's a strange twist to this question of the exhibit entries anyway. It has been pointed out that the photo shows a LHD Moke. True but I don't think it is the Moke described in the supporting text! The one in the supporting text is described as having a 72" wheelbase (i.e. the short wheelbase Moke) but the one shown is of the standard length wheelbase i.e. 80". I am pretty certain that the one shown in the photo did go to the States and has survived. For many years it has been owned by a guy in California who has slowly been restoring it. His Moke has all the features that you see in the photo and features that differ from the 1959 prototypes. e.g. fuel tank on the side and not at the rear. To support my theory that the text in the catalogue is about the short wheelbase Moke have a look at this thumbnail photo that I found on the Stilltime library website:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80272[/ATTACH]

 

You can clearly see that it is a short wheelbase Moke (72") and the number 3 is in the windscreen. This I believe is the actual Moke that was Exhibit 3 at the 1962 exhibition.

 

That's it for the moment. A few questions and a few queries to chew on! Thanks again to everyone for their help.

 

Graham

[snowtracdave]

Welcome to The Forum Graham .

[private mw]

hi a warm welcome to the forum , :-)

[Richard Farrant]

Incidentally I'm still baffled by the 4 digit number stenciled on the bonnet or engine bay side. What do they mean? Did the Army keep a record of the vehicle by this number and not by the registration number?

 

Moving on to the catalogue exhibit picture from the FVRDE Exhibition at Chertsey. Whilst I already have this picture from many years ago I had always thought it to be from the 1963 exhibition and not 1962. The catalogue entry for 1962 that I have is very similar but refers to Exhibit No. 3, not 4. Does anyone have the catalogues from 1962 and 1963 so that this can be checked out? Maybe the 2 catalogues were from 1961 and 1962 and not 1962 and 1963 as I had always thought. Whatever is someone able to clear this point up?

 

To support my theory that the text in the catalogue is about the short wheelbase Moke have a look at this thumbnail photo that I found on the Stilltime library website:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]80272[/ATTACH]

 

You can clearly see that it is a short wheelbase Moke (72") and the number 3 is in the windscreen. This I believe is the actual Moke that was Exhibit 3 at the 1962 exhibition.

 

 

Hi Graham,

That photo you have attached was taken at the 1962 FVRDE display at Chertsey, I have a shot from the rear as well, taken at the same location. I used them in an article for Vintage Roadscene, May 2011 issue. It is indeed a prototype and very likely built as LHD because the display was a shop window for British Motor Industry to sell military vehicles to other countries.

 

The stencilled four figure numbers are I believe a form of asset code or fleet number by FVRDE, who were not military as such and often used civilian registrations on trial vehicles.

 

cheers Richard

[wally dugan]

Right l spent many months at CHERTSEY over a number of years so l think l know abit about how it worked so lets deal with the subject of your four white numbers on the bonnets these were called ESTABLISHMENT numbers when a new vehicle arrived be it a prototype or a production vehicle it did not get allocated number straight away it received a ESTABLISHMENT NUMBER which was painted on both sides and can be seen on other vehicles that where at chertsey first this helped to identify the individual vehicle when it was photographed so you could tell one from another it was often refered to as the photo number the reason for this l was told was number plates get swopped sometimes no ones going to re paint a number to much bother when the vehicles went onto roads out side they were issused with a registration number in this case ones out of the BT range just to prove that numbers where swopped you mentioned 14 BT 17 one l know

better than any one else if you remove the metal front number plate you will find another 14 BT NUMBER UNDER IT

you may not like this but from memory its 14 bt 17 but l could be wrong but a number is there as to what the CHERTSEY FILES hold l have really never looked in this case we should thank phylo roadking because if l had not been looking for some

thing for him l may not have found these files again there are hundreds of photos and hundreds of reports on vehicles

from 1944 to the 1990s as to your other questions if you wish l will answer them for you

 

 

kind regards wally

[wally dugan]

IN front of me now l have the 1962 BRITISH MILITARY VEHICLE BOOK ON PAGES 6 and 7 exhibit number 3 is the left

hand drive moke that tony B posted if it did appear in a earlier book it may have been in brackets [ in project stage ]

after what RICHARD POSTED i may of not of explained the establishment numbering clearly but to put simplely it was a way of tracking and the numbering was nothing to do with the MOD but only for use by CHERTSEY

[wally dugan]

GRAHAM SORRY

 

the number on the front under metal number plate should read 14 BT 18 finger must have slipped

[wally dugan]

GRAHAM

a bit more on MOKES from the CHERTSEY FILES

 

SPL 433A sent back to AUSTIN MOTORS on the 14/12/ 1960

SPL 446A struck off charge no date given

SPL 453 AM sent to MT SCHOOL BORDON on the25/6/ 1963

SPL 466AMsent to the MT SCHOOL BORDON on the 25/6 / 1963

SPL 467AM sent to the SCHOOL OF TANK TECHNOLOGY BOVINGTON on the 18/3/1963

SPL 468AM returned to storage at ASHCHURCH on the 24/4/1969

SPL 578 sent back to AUSTIN MOTORS on the 22/6/ 1961

SPL 748 sent back to AUSTIN MOTORS on the2/10/ 1962

[andym]

Is the one at Sparkford still there? Last time I looked, Haynes had got rid of all their military vehicles.

 

Andy

[59Prototype]

 

I’ve owned my Moke for nearly 30 years and have researched all the prototypes during that time but for this last week I have been like a lad in a sweetshop! To discover so much new information after all this time is marvellous. Thanks to all concerned and in particular to Wally.

 

In mentioning you Wally if you’re reading this I think that you and I might have met around 1985/86 when you were at the museum in Beverley. I paid the museum a visit and took loads of photos of 14 BT 17 which proved to be invaluable when starting on the restoration of 14 BT 18. I also went into an office there where I discussed the two Mokes with someone. It might have been you! It was at that time that I first had proof that the two numbers, 14 BT 17 and 14 BT 18 had been swopped over at some time. Whoever it was I spoke to showed me a sheet (a card?) of information on the museum Moke. As expected it was for 14 BT 17 but reading down through it I said ‘But SPL 466/AM is the chassis number of my Moke, not yours! The chassis number of the museum Moke is SPL 446/AM’. However this all tied in with some photos I had by then obtained of 14 BT 18 taken at Longbridge in 1959/60. That Moke has a built up section at the point where the rear subframe attaches to the body. My Moke does not have that built up section but the museum Moke i.e. SPL 446/AM does so I knew that my Moke could not have begun life as 14 BT 18. From Wally says about the repainting that went on a FVRDE and the way it was done I can now see how the two Mokes came to have their plates swopped over.

 

That leads me on to make an observation that perhaps someone would like to comment on. From Wally’s information he says that SPL 446 original had the Establishment Number of 5998 but that was later changed to 6011. If we then assume that my Moke was originally 14 BT 17 we end up with this little sequence:

 

SPL 465 – 14 BT

16

- 60

09

SPL 466 – 14 BT

17

- 60

10

SPL 446 – 14 BT

18

- 60

11

 

From that I would deduce that the 3 Mokes were all registered at FVRDE at the same time with their establishment numbers and their plate numbers.

 

Can I pick up on something else that I think is probably even more fascinating and that concerns SPL 453 with an Establishment Number of 2008. I have previously mentioned that the two numbers don’t appear to go together as SPL 453 is the chassis number of 20 BT 30 yet 6008 can be found on the bonnet of numerous photos I have of the Royal Marines Moke, 07 RN 49. I’ve since been back to the current owner of 20 BT 30 and he assures me that when he bought the Moke in 1971 from someone at Bordon it had the SPL 453 chassis plate riveted to the bulkhead. He also said that it came with the 20 BT 30 number plates, as well as pointing out that it didn’t have the original petrol tank as it had been swopped at some time during the 1960s and the replacement was held on by leather straps. He makes a good point and that petrol tank and the leather straps can be seen in photos of 20 BT 30 taken at the BBC Autopoints. Further proof if needed is that fact that Wally notes that SPL 453 went to Bordon in 1963. Clearly the current owner does have 20 BT 30 with a chassis number of SPL 453. So where do we go from here on this one? Well yesterday evening I had a Eureka moment! What if SPL 453 started life as the Royal Marines Moke (07 RN 49) and after all the trials had taken place at FVRDE, Middle Wallop and at Westland Helicopters, it was transferred either to, or back to the army where it was given the new registration of 20 BT 30? Would this have been possible and/or feasible? My suggestion does tie in with three other points and they are:

 

1.

All the photos I have ever found of 07 RN 49 were taken c. 1959/1960. I have no later ones. On the other hand I have found no early photos of 20 BT 30. The ones I have are all from the time of the BBC Autopoints around 1966-1968.

 

2.

The photos I have of 07 RN 49 all show a metal number plate fixed to the front bumper and a blank black painted oblong between the two headlights. Could this strip have been to cover up some other number or was it there ready to have a number painted on it? I know that other Mokes had their numbers painted on between the headlights.

 

3.

I always thought it strange that 20 BT 30 had a very early (in prototype Moke terms) chassis number yet had a later than 14 BT 17/14 BT 18 Army number. How could this have happened unless it wasn’t to become an army vehicle until a little later? This adds weight to my argument.

 

On point 3, from the number 20 BT 30 is there any way that its date of issue can be worked out, even approximately? I’m assuming that it was done in much the same way that civilian vehicle registrations were issued. Army vehicle number registration is something that I am not up on. (You must remember that my Army career finished when I left school and with it the CCF where I had attained the dizzy height of sergeant!) Can anyone throw any light on this please? Is there some sort of chart available that indicates what each number represents? Incidentally, and once again I show my ignorance, what is the significance of the number

before

the two letters? It’s obvious what the two numbers after the two letters represent.

 

By the way Andy, 14 BT 17 is still at the Haynes Museum at Sparkford as far as I know.

 

That’s about it for now. Lots of things for you all to chew over and respond to.(I hope!) If anyone wants to email me my address is:

Moke59Prototype@aol.com

 

Graham

 

[wally dugan]

HI GRAHAM

 

Yes l think we may have met l would be a technical officer at that time if you do not mind l will answer your questions

one at a time and not in order last first The question of REG numbers BT was a number used on trails vehicles not generally

issued to in service vehicles CHERTSEY had its own issue of numbers both civillian type and special types like BT/SP/WA

JUST A FEW of what were used They were reused on other types of vehicles after they had finished being trailed if the IF

the trailed vehicle was to be issued to a service unit to be assessed it would get a regular service type number ie 22 bg 86

As to the trails done by CHERTSEY on the moke theses were done at LONG VALLEY BAGSHOT HEATH AND AT CHERTSEY

ITS SELF

 

REGARDS WALLY

[ploughman]

Do not know if it is the same as the Military one on the leaflet shown earlier but I remember seeing one very similar on the Scilly Isles in 1972 in use as a Police Car.

[wally dugan]

HI

 

BMC gave up on the idea of selling the MOKE to the military in about 1963 but sold the moke in the civillian market up to

1968 in which time they became an icon of the swinging 60s the thing to be seen in around LONDON after 1968 mokes

were built in AUSTRALIA also very few of the military ones were made

 

REGARDS WALLY

[wally dugan]

HI GRAHAM

 

STILL on question 3 this from the CHERTSEY HAND BOOK section 4 quote [ BT numbers will be issused to the following

CLASSES of vehicles on user trials. Cars on under cover operations northern ireland ] as to dating numbers in the BT range

you will find differcult To under stand a range of numbers starts like this first one 00 BT 01 UP to 99 BT 99 and are issused

on a first come first served A block of numbers will be issued to a project but as vehicles may not all come in at once but spread over a period of time l do not know what you mean by what do the first two numbers stand for Hope this answers

all of question 3

 

 

regards WALLY