question Hotchkiss Firing order

[hoppy]

Could I please ask for some help with the firing order etc for my Hotchkiss jeep, I know it is 1-3-4-2; however is that using the nearest plug to the radiator as number 1 working back to 2-3-4.

 

 

Working from the distibutor cap which 'tower' would be the number 1 position be in? I have checked the rotor arm and it is spinning anti clockwise on turn over.

 

 

I ahve spent the afternoon trying to get the enigine started with no joy what so ever.

 

On another 'please help' note I have also noted the radiator is starting to seep water from the top seam, only a very small bubble where there is slight rust spot. Can this be repaired or is it advisable to aquire a new radiator?

 

 

Many thanks

[Nick Johns]

Get no.1 cylinder on top dead centre on compression stroke, easiest way is remove front spark plug and turn engine on starting handle if you have one, holding finger over plug hole till you feel the air forcing out as it comes up on compression, you can also try checking the timing marks but they are not easy to see, check which contact the rotor arm is now pointing at, this is no.1 plug lead. the next contact going anti clock is no.3 cylinder etc

If the radiator only has slight seam leak a competent plumber can run some solder along it, otherwise take it to a radiator specialist who will no doubt convince you it needs rebuilding

Edited March 31, 2012 by Nick Johns

[Tony B]

If the leack is miniscule, there are some good pour in sealers available now. I'd only consider that a hold over though till you get a rebuild.

[hoppy]

Get no.1 cylinder on top dead centre on compression stroke, easiest way is remove front spark plug and turn engine on starting handle if you have one, holding finger over plug hole till you feel the air forcing out as it comes up on compression, you can also try checking the timing marks but they are not easy to see, check which contact the rotor arm is now pointing at, this is no.1 plug lead. the next contact going anti clock is no.3 cylinder etc

If the radiator only has slight seam leak a competent plumber can run some solder along it, otherwise take it to a radiator specialist who will no doubt convince you it needs rebuilding

 

Nick

 

Thanks for the pointers, will have to try them next wekend, time has run out today I have been told to tidy everything up and close the garage..............

 

Must admit never thought about using solder.

 

Cheers

 

HOPPY

[hoppy]

If the leack is miniscule, there are some good pour in sealers available now. I'd only consider that a hold over though till you get a rebuild.

 

Considered the pour in sealant; as the leak is on the very top lip of the radiator would the sealant only work went the coolant gets hot?

 

Any ideas for a good reliable company/rebuilder?

 

Cheers

 

HOPPY

[Centurion]

Hi,

 

the advice about the firing order putting your finger over the plug hole to feel for compression is the best way to go. When I had my Hotchkiss I did some work on the oil pump and lost the ignition timing. When I tried to reset the timing. I couldnt get it right using the timing marks.

 

I eventually discovered that the flywheel isnt pegged so can be bolted on in any position. When the French rebuilt the engines they obviously did so many that they could set up the timing without any trouble. On mine the flywheel was half a turn out so when the flywheel timing marks were right the distributor rotor arm was not pointing a the no1 cylinder position. By using the thumb over the hole method I found that when the the flywheel marks were right it was timed on no3.

 

Good luck , regards Centurion

[hoppy]

Hi,

 

the advice about the firing order putting your finger over the plug hole to feel for compression is the best way to go. When I had my Hotchkiss I did some work on the oil pump and lost the ignition timing. When I tried to reset the timing. I couldnt get it right using the timing marks.

 

I eventually discovered that the flywheel isnt pegged so can be bolted on in any position. When the French rebuilt the engines they obviously did so many that they could set up the timing without any trouble. On mine the flywheel was half a turn out so when the flywheel timing marks were right the distributor rotor arm was not pointing a the no1 cylinder position. By using the thumb over the hole method I found that when the the flywheel marks were right it was timed on no3.

 

Good luck , regards Centurion

 

UPDATE

 

Got the firing order sorted out, was told that No.1 was at the four o'clock position on the disributor cap and to work anti clockwise from there which sorted it out but I also found that the distributor arm was out and not matching up with any position at all!

 

Next problem is the reason I initially took all the plugs out, that is 4-2 are miss firing. All plugs were cleaned, all have a good spark, 1-3 are working fine. I have swapped the HT leads, they are fine so presume it is a fuel problem. I have notice that the carb is leaking more than usual and have found a puddle of fuel underneath after turning the engine over. Have considered head gasket is perished but from my limited knowledge the engine oil may be contaminated if this is the problem, but it is still fresh.

[hoppy]

Further update

 

 

I have stripped the carb down cleaned a lot of rubbish out, all gaskets seem fine now have fuel getting through; all the plugs are damp with petrol, now the jeep is running but under power is is backfiring and bucking when you drive it off and put the power on.

 

 

The problem seems to be that only two cylinders are firing still despite everything being cleaned stripped etc. When I take the leads off for the front two plugs 1-3 the engine begins to hunt and then dies. When I just take the back two off 4-2 there is no change in the engine at all and actually sounds OK, very frustrating.

 

 

I have checked the distributer and noticed slight play in the rotor arm, could this affect any thing?

[Gordon_M]

Hmm, well surely the back two would be 3 & 4, then?

 

Only obvious answer is that the rear two have stuck valves - you don't say how long is has been since it was running correctly - weeks, months - a year?

 

If it has been running Ok relatively recently I'd guess that your timing is well out, on the wrong side of TDC, for example.

[Big ray]

Check the compression on the two back cylinders, if they are both down significantly you could have a blown gasket across those two cylinders ??

[hoppy]

Hmm, well surely the back two would be 3 & 4, then?

 

Only obvious answer is that the rear two have stuck valves - you don't say how long is has been since it was running correctly - weeks, months - a year?

 

If it has been running Ok relatively recently I'd guess that your timing is well out, on the wrong side of TDC, for example.

 

Going to get pressure check done if my brother can source a gauge to suss if it is a stuck valve issue. jeep was running fine no more than two weeks ago, symptom was out for a run, got home parked up outside no issues; cup of tea then went back to park in garage and on start up had the misfire/rough running issue. Is there any other way of checking to see if the valves are stuck?

 

What do mean by TDC please.

 

Many thanks

[hoppy]

Check the compression on the two back cylinders, if they are both down significantly you could have a blown gasket across those two cylinders ??

 

Ray

 

That's the next plan, brother is hopefully sourcing a pressure guage I just need to find out what pressure the engine should run at; if you could help.

 

Just one thing whilst working outside on the jeep when running it up etc it has been blowing lots of black soot etc out......only found out when I saw it all down the side of my wifes car

[hoppy]

wwwwwwww

Hmm, well surely the back two would be 3 & 4, then?

 

Only obvious answer is that the rear two have stuck valves - you don't say how long is has been since it was running correctly - weeks, months - a year?

 

If it has been running Ok relatively recently I'd guess that your timing is well out, on the wrong side of TDC, for example.

[Big ray]

Ray

 

That's the next plan, brother is hopefully sourcing a pressure guage I just need to find out what pressure the engine should run at; if you could help.

 

Just one thing whilst working outside on the jeep when running it up etc it has been blowing lots of black soot etc out......only found out when I saw it all down the side of my wifes car

 

Between 100 and 120 is good, but you want equalibrium on all cylinders.

[Big ray]

What do mean by TDC please.

 

Many thanks

 

Top Dead Centre..... thats when the piston is at the top of the stroke on compression, you check that with a screwdriver through the plug hole, keep the screwdriver perpendicular and turn the engine slowly, (manually) you can check that you are coming up on compression by putting your thumb over the plug hole.

[Big ray]

Ray

 

 

 

Just one thing whilst working outside on the jeep when running it up etc it has been blowing lots of black soot etc out......only found out when I saw it all down the side of my wifes car

 

Could be a blown gasket, water (Steam) blown through the exhaust system leaving black run marks on whatever it hits............... like your wifes car ?.

[hoppy]

Hi,

 

the advice about the firing order putting your finger over the plug hole to feel for compression is the best way to go. When I had my Hotchkiss I did some work on the oil pump and lost the ignition timing. When I tried to reset the timing. I couldnt get it right using the timing marks.

 

I eventually discovered that the flywheel isnt pegged so can be bolted on in any position. When the French rebuilt the engines they obviously did so many that they could set up the timing without any trouble. On mine the flywheel was half a turn out so when the flywheel timing marks were right the distributor rotor arm was not pointing a the no1 cylinder position. By using the thumb over the hole method I found that when the the flywheel marks were right it was timed on no3.

 

Good luck , regards Centurion

 

 

Many thanks

 

Have had the cylinder head off gasket is perfect and there appears to be no other problem(s) obvious to me anyway. If it is a timing issue would that be why two cylinders are firing and two aren't?

 

Also how easy/accesable is the flywheel to check the markings?

[Nick Johns]

Check the distributor cap for cracks, or black lines, might be arcing between the two plug leads, I assume you've checked the points gap? if its closed up could cause a misfire

[hoppy]

Check the distributor cap for cracks, or black lines, might be arcing between the two plug leads, I assume you've checked the points gap? if its closed up could cause a misfire

 

Nick

 

Had a good look at the cap, all contact points rotor arm etc and can not find any burning or any other evidence of arcing, there are slight scratch marks to the contact points but nothing excessive.

 

Have not checked the gap; with that I will have to admit I am not the best skilled mechanic, how etc would you do that?

[Nick Johns]

Nic

 

Have not checked the gap; with that I will have to admit I am not the best skilled mechanic, how etc would you do that?

Point gap is easy to check but quite critical, you should seek assistance from someone who knows what they are doing, otherwise you likely cause more problems

Edited April 23, 2012 by Nick Johns

[Jolly Jeeper]

Backfiring and missing - I'd check the head gasket by testing compression on all four cylinders. I'd also check the valve clearances as if they're not right the valves won't close properly so reducing compression. 16/18 thou hot/cold etc.

 

JC

[commander]

Have you sorted this Hotchkiss out yet ?

Commander

[hoppy]

Have you sorted this Hotchkiss out yet ?

Commander

 

Nope not as of yet still waiting to source pressure test kit from my brother, not a lot of time this week to look at it either, should have some time over the weekend to have a look...............I hope.

[Big ray]

Have you sorted this Hotchkiss out yet ?

Commander

 

He should join the North Staffs Area, that would do it!!!!

[hoppy]

He should join the North Staffs Area, that would do it!!!!

 

Ray

 

Must admit I did come to a meeting about 18 months ago, what with one thing and another just kept missing them so thought it would be a bit cheeky coming back and asking for help, I will try to attend ASAP ...... honest, when I came everyone was fantastic; very welcoming and freindly.

 

With the jeep have finally managed to get a compression test done today (after 2 hours sleep coming off a night shift) shows front 3 cylinders all 100 rear one 0.

 

Cylinder head taken off and the rear valve and guide need work on them. Have stripped down the block down as far as removing the valve from here on in need some help hopefully in the form of the bosses uncle ................