Sidewinder Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 For a while now I've needed/wanted a nice warm dry workshop... all my previous projects have had to sit outside and currently my 432 is parked outside in a nice cold muddy quarry which doesn't do it much good, or encourage me to go and work on it. Now not far down the road there is a yard about 40mx120m that is owned by the company I work for, its sat unused since the 60's when it was used by the council as a storage yard for machinery now assuming I could persuade them to part with it, I've been looking at these DIY steel building kits about £5/6k for a 6mx8m workshop with 3.5m wide manual roller shutter door. This seems like pretty good value to me... but bearing in mind the old adage if it seems to good to be true it usually is.. so does anyone have any experience of them? Laying a concrete pad as hard standing I can do relatively cheaply and easily so depending on the price of the land it seems like a fairly easy/cheap way of owning a small yard and workshop. I suppose there's always the possibility of renting out storage/workshop space as well to help fund. Where exactly do I stand with planning permission? I might be imagining it but I'm sure someone told me that because they are a temporary building that bolt to the floor you only need permission for the concrete pad? And I suppose change of use for the land? Cheers, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Sorry to dissapoint but many modern permanent steel framed clad structures are simply bolted to a slab and they will definately require planning consent. In most cases a steel framed structure is totally recycleable and demountable. Thats why they become available to purchase second hand! Change of use is pretty standard stuff and would apply but not necessarily. The use class on the land can be confirmed by your local planning office. Whilst a different heading you may be carrying out a similar operation. Namely industrial, storage, manufacturing, etc etc etc. If the local plan dictates the site for employment then that is obviously different as it would be for personal use. However authorities don't like to see sites left derelict and undeveloped so you would just have to go through the motions via an application. You will also need to apply for planning regarding rainwater roof drainage and soil water discharges as appropriate to public sewer, treatment plant, soakaway and the like, especially if the position of buildings differs from a historic site layout. PPG 25 covers flooding and the environment agency manage polution control as a local authority consultee. The slab is easy enough and we have a humble engineer on the forum, who will chip in as needs be to offer initial advice. All sounds quite daunting to some. However! My first suggestion would be to go and see the local planner at the local authority offices and discuss your intentions with him. This does 2 key things: Allows you to meet someone formally face to face and discuss honestly your intentions. Kick starts the dialogue process so that should you proceed you are a known entity to the case officer and not just a name on an application form. It does help believe it or not! I hope that gives you a starter for 10 as there is no point progressing with the site if you buy a 'dead duck'! Regards Wayne Associate Director Darnton EGS Ltd Architects www.darntonegs.com Edited November 9, 2010 by Rover8FFR Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woa2 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 I agree, go and have a calm word with the local council and see what you can do. My garage is technically a shed, as it is just inside the size for a shed and therefore didn't need planning permission. My shed is 24 feet by 11 feet. Talk to the council calmly and see what you can do without planning permission and they should help you. Be open and explain what you are doing and why, and what benefits you are bringing attending shows locally and what help you have given the local community - have you helped with fund raising for any charities such as the British Legion or Help for Heroes, for example. I found my local council very helpful when I was having problems with planning permission with a neighbour about 10 years ago. Once the officials had found out that had helped the local museum with a WW2 display the previous year (and yes, they did check my story), they were sympathetic. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Unless you are in a "conservation" area.. A shed / garage - basically if you are behind the front building line facing a public highway , and 1m away from the boundary (fire resistant materials required right up to boundary) amd. AND about 15ft from the house (m ?) Then the max. floor area of 30 square meters applies (no planning permission required). - the ridge on a apex. roof must be under 4m and the eaves under 2.5m. If you are "on the flat" - then the height of 4m to apex. will be the FFL at the natural level, a levelled site - then you need to look into it a bit more. There has been legal test cases on the "definition" of eaves height - gable end , fascia / soffit construction - then the eaves is to the undercloak. Flat roof max. height , a little more complex and ISTR - one or two test cases. Edited November 9, 2010 by ruxy amd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Involve neighbours, they will have plenty to say when the planning application goes in, so try to get them on side before, rather than putting their backs up by not warning them of your plans.....Objections from neighbours can and do result in applications being rejected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Project IKEA Barracks (just under 30 sq. m) :- Box up next week , then the jig-saw out for the window frames , batten for 2" air space and then re-clad with 22mm finish TG&V & Shiplap - all tanalised timber - will see me out and my sons ... Of course - you can have multiple sheds (providing you don't cover more that IIRC 50% of your garden) , I have two more going up 30m square but conventional brick & block - at least with this I can job on over winter without spending a fortune on anti-freeze for mortar & concrete. The floor - well concrete is expensive and bricks (so called rejects) cost me sfa.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Unless you are in a "conservation" area.. A shed / garage - basically if you are behind the front building line facing a public highway , and 1m away from the boundary (fire resistant materials required right up to boundary) amd. AND about 15ft from the house (m ?) Then the max. floor area of 30 square meters applies (no planning permission required). - the ridge on a apex. roof must be under 4m and the eaves under 2.5m. If you are "on the flat" - then the height of 4m to apex. will be the FFL at the natural level, a levelled site - then you need to look into it a bit more. There has been legal test cases on the "definition" of eaves height - gable end , fascia / soffit construction - then the eaves is to the undercloak. Flat roof max. height , a little more complex and ISTR - one or two test cases. Ruxy not strictly true as the permitted development rule you state is for residential only and not all authorities apply this ruling verbatum! As a steel framed structure is referred to and it is not on residential land then the guidance given is to approach the planners. In the past when domestic extensions have applied to the permitted development policy then I have always seeked confirmation in writing from the planners to prove this so that evidence can be lodged with the deeds to the property demonstrating that no planning was required at that time. Don't forget planning legislation and policy change regularly and the sale of a property some time later can stir up a hornets nest regarding approvals! Every local authority is different and many may consider a steel framed workshop to be more akin to a light industrial and agricultural type use, which again falls into different sub-policies. As I stated earlier, make an appointment to see LA planner. Be honest and then you know where you stand and where they do on their current planning policy. Always critical to do the leg work up front with planning authorities, on any size project! Cheers Edited November 9, 2010 by Rover8FFR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woa2 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Unless you are in a "conservation" area.. Oh yes, I forgot about the 'Conservation Area' bit. I had a lot of problems back in 1984 with this in my previous house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Involve neighbours, they will have plenty to say when the planning application goes in, so try to get them on side before, rather than putting their backs up by not warning them of your plans.....Objections from neighbours can and do result in applications being rejected. Always nice to do but not vital as un-informed objections are ignored by the planning officer on incorrect policy grounds. It is however helpful with anything like this to get people on side! Saves delays caused by decision by committee etc. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Ruxy not strictly true as the permitted development rule you state is for residential only and not all authorities apply this ruling verbatum! As a steel framed structure is referred to and it is not on residential land then the guidance given is to approach the planners. In the past when domestic extensions have applied to the permitted development policy then I have always seeked confirmation in writing from the planners to prove this so that evidence can be lodged with the deeds to the property demonstrating that no planning was required at that time. Don't forget planning legislation and policy change regularly and the sale of a property some time later can stir up a hornets nest regarding approvals! Every local authority is different and many may consider a steel framed workshop to be more akin to a light industrial and agricultural type use, which again falls into different sub-policies. As I stated earlier, make an appointment to see LA planner. Be honest and then you know where you stand and where they do on their current planning policy. Always critical to do the leg work up front with planning authorities, on any size project! Cheers ============================================ Yes - I was aware he made no mention of the land status. However no land is cheap and any body selling would automatically apply for "outline". Lincolnshire is the largest English county and I doubt if there is any financial difference in land between "Industrial" and with outline. Absolutely miles of fields in every direction , lowest population per hectre , depending on circumstances - probably the cheapest in England - unless the Rumanians working the fields have got there first !! Purchase with outline and he will have no problem - build his garage / workshop first and then his house. One must get their priorities correct... Edited November 9, 2010 by ruxy crap spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Project IKEA Barracks (just under 30 sq. m) :- Box up next week , then the jig-saw out for the window frames , batten for 2" air space and then re-clad with 22mm finish TG&V & Shiplap - all tanalised timber - will see me out and my sons ... Of course - you can have multiple sheds (providing you don't cover more that IIRC 50% of your garden) , I have two more going up 30m square but conventional brick & block - at least with this I can job on over winter without spending a fortune on anti-freeze for mortar & concrete. The floor - well concrete is expensive and bricks (so called rejects) cost me sfa.. Ruxy are the edgings bedded onto a slab or ring beam as whilst the cavities are grouted up it is unclear as to how these are fixed down to a solid base? Whilst the floor of clay paviors is academic it is the uplift through negative wind pressure that could cause the 'shed' type construction to uplift. Given the size of your panels and mass, an uplift moment will probably be counteracted and you will probably be OK assuming a wind pressue of less than 1200 pascals. If the winds are greater than 1200 pascals along an elevation then you would all be quite amazed to see how bricks and mortar act like a pack of cards, resulting in collapse! Have you had someone give your design the once over for piece of mind??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 A base ring beam of heavy tanalized timber (47 x 200) sits on top of the hollow blocks, the sections are pre-drilled for 12mm coachscrews into the ring beam. Wind pressure - I have some reinforced concrete lintels that get set in concrete around the perimeter. Once loose erected 47 x 100 are coachbolted along the top of the sections as a wall plate , similar stringers along the side for the cladding. There is a lot more to this than I have shown , steel plate reinforcement gusseting to fabricated timber trusses , steel ties to ground and concreted in. I am putting steels in for a 500 kg. runway track as the floor will not be great for a crane (I have beam tables from my past life) .... In fact - more expensive than conventional at a guestimate from costs to date... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 A base ring beam of heavy tanalized timber (47 x 200) sits on top of the hollow blocks, the sections are pre-drilled for 12mm coachscrews into the ring beam. Wind pressure - I have some reinforced concrete lintels that get set in concrete around the perimeter. Once loose erected 47 x 100 are coachbolted along the top of the sections as a wall plate , similar stringers along the side for the cladding. There is a lot more to this than I have shown , steel plate reinforcement gusseting to fabricated timber trusses , steel ties to ground and concreted in. I am putting steels in for a 500 kg. runway track as the floor will not be great for a crane (I have beam tables from my past life) .... In fact - more expensive than conventional at a guestimate from costs to date... I should coco! that all sound quite robust and I can see where the OTT to B&Q shed has been applied......Not quite IKEA though is it mate... More Carlsberg Sheds! Post some pics when done as I would like to see complete. Regards Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 Thanks for all the replies so far... To clarify a few points the land isn't in my back garden or anything, its a small hardcored yard in open country side. There are a two houses nearby on the opposite side of the road, but its outside of any village boundaries. That said the site is pretty much well hidden, high trees and hedges as well as being in a dip mean apart from an overgrown gateway from the road you'd never know it was there. I did enquire a few years ago about planning permission from the local council to build a house on the site and was told it'd probably be a no, however an argicultural dwelling/farm building etc would most likely be accepted. I'm fairly confident, that as long as the application was sensible and the building wasn't too intrusive something should be workable. At the end of the day, the land is overgrown, used for flytipping etc so I would imagine the council should be keen to see it tidied up. Hm, I hadn't considered a brick/breeze block construction might be an even cheaper way to go and would match the local character a lot more than a steel building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Wayne - you architects are all the same , wtf - who needs a ring beam , it is only a shed !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Thanks for all the replies so far... To clarify a few points the land isn't in my back garden or anything, its a small hardcored yard in open country side. There are a two houses nearby on the opposite side of the road, but its outside of any village boundaries. That said the site is pretty much well hidden, high trees and hedges as well as being in a dip mean apart from an overgrown gateway from the road you'd never know it was there. I did enquire a few years ago about planning permission from the local council to build a house on the site and was told it'd probably be a no, however an argicultural dwelling/farm building etc would most likely be accepted. I'm fairly confident, that as long as the application was sensible and the building wasn't too intrusive something should be workable. At the end of the day, the land is overgrown, used for flytipping etc so I would imagine the council should be keen to see it tidied up. Hm, I hadn't considered a brick/breeze block construction might be an even cheaper way to go and would match the local character a lot more than a steel building. Agricultural building is your best steer on planning given the extra info. Regarding costs a steel framed, steel wall cladding and profiled steel roof would be quickest and cheapest. You could use a dado block wall internally say up to 2250mm (10 vertical block courses) above slab level so that you can fix things to walls. If brick and block then your costs will sore by comparison. That's why run of the mill farmers buildings are steel sheds as low cost! If you are going to heat the building above 25Kw of heat (25Kw is basically the heat generated by internal lighting in a storage shed) then the floor slab, walls and roof will all have to be insulated to current building regulations under Approved Document L2A for England and Wales. Details can be found under. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL2A_2006.pdf However the regs have just been updated, but as a starter. In case you didn't know for such a building even if planning exept it may be required to comply under building regulations. Depends what working conditions you want and how large an electricity / gas / LPG bill you want??? Edited November 9, 2010 by Rover8FFR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Agricultural building is your best steer on planning given the extra info. If you build & state as an Agricultural Building on any application/determination then that would be it's only permitted use.. my mate recently received a planning enforcement for using an Agricultural building for other uses (non Agricultural private workshop), he's just lost his appeal & must pull it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 Realised my mistake as soon as I clicked post, just done some rough costings for a brick building and it made my eyes water! I think a quick chat with the local planning office then and neighbours, see what they all say. With regards to services, should everything go ahead I wasn't going to bother. I think the cost of running an electric/water supply etc to the building would be prohibitive considering how much use the building would actually have. I'd probably just end up settling for a generator to provide power, and a portable gas powered heater. Fingers crossed all will go well, main thing is how much the land owners will want for the land. I'm hoping 4800metre2 of waste land shouldn't be too expensive or am I delusional!? Thanks again, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Wayne - you architects are all the same , wtf - who needs a ring beam , it is only a shed !!! :rotfl::rotfl::banghead::banghead::banghead: Have you watched the Wizard of Oz??? Wait till an engineer gets involved :nono::thumbsup: You will see what a foundation is then....At least we invented 'Sky Hooks' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 If you are putting up a steel clad building, consider the roof. Galvanised steel roofing sheets simply ooze condensation, which finds every opportunity (e.g. roofing bolts, purlins) to drip down on your goodies below. Double lining of some sort, even sprayed foam, will make an amazing difference to one's quality of life within :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 If you are putting up a steel clad building, consider the roof. Galvanised steel roofing sheets simply ooze condensation, which finds every opportunity (e.g. roofing bolts, purlins) to drip down on your goodies below. Double lining of some sort, even sprayed foam, will make an amazing difference to one's quality of life within :-) There are specific coatings for this as recommended by Corus and others and are heavily used by even the MOD for single skin clad sub pens. It's called by lots of names but all the major manufacturers have a version as such http://www.euroclad.com/media/98092/euroclad%20grafotherm.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Wayne - I purchased a 12mm tanalised 8'-4" sheet of ply to mull over for roofing £18 , . Not as firm (but a lot lighter to get on the roof) , a 18mm sheet is £24 - so a lot firmer when nailed to the purlins (and a lot more wood per £ - so will stick to 18mm I think). I want to get a roof on before snow , well it is sleeting just now actually !! I don't like rag based felt , flat roofs I use Italian Gedacom polyester stuff but too good for a shed. The last shed I did I used a polyester reinforced shed felt from Wickes but only 8m on a roll and I can't find similar at a better rate ?? http://www.wickes.co.uk/Super-Shed-Felt/invt/164067 Later - I intend to overoof with this type of stuff, preferably a small red tile effect (like Rosemary) in the main because I will be able to see some of it from the house and I would rather be looking at a cricket pavillion than a barracks ! http://www.britmet.co.uk/ Have you come across any of this stuff are a realistic shed type price ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 :rotfl::rotfl::banghead::banghead::banghead: Have you watched the Wizard of Oz??? Wait till an engineer gets involved :nono::thumbsup: You will see what a foundation is then....At least we invented 'Sky Hooks' Sky Hooks are an extremely useful invention. However Building Control never seem to want to accept them as a valid means of support, even when only used as bracing to a steel frame. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 If you are putting up a steel clad building, consider the roof. Galvanised steel roofing sheets simply ooze condensation, which finds every opportunity (e.g. roofing bolts, purlins) to drip down on your goodies below. Double lining of some sort, even sprayed foam, will make an amazing difference to one's quality of life within :-) Totally agree. Had one of those single skin steel sheds, technically on loan to my father at the moment. On some occassions you needed an umbrella when inside. If frame is strongenought you could line it with thin ply on the underside of the purlins/frame with insulation in between. If you don't you might aswell leave things outside. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Later - I intend to overoof with this type of stuff, preferably a small red tile effect (like Rosemary) in the main because I will be able to see some of it from the house and I would rather be looking at a cricket pavillion than a barracks ! http://www.britmet.co.uk/ Have you come across any of this stuff are a realistic shed type price ?? Make friends with a cladding contractor or D&B shed builder. Although a bit thin on the ground at the moment. Have seen large amounts of cladding being dumped because somebody has bent a bit with a piece of plant. When it comes to snagging most clients seem to reject dented buildings. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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