Bren Gun Carriers

[Jack]

Can anyone tell me what exactly Bren Gun Carriers were for? My Grandfather always complained about them being next to useless for protecting the men in side of them, so this is telling that they were a front line vehicle, were they a small gun tractor?........

[Karoshi]

The Bren Carrier was only one form of the Universal Carrier. The vehicle was designed (1934) principally to transport Infantry troops across lightly defended ground. But as a Universal Carrier is was used in many roles, to transport ammunition, food, water, mortars, medical supplies and all the other essential kit required to "keep the man in the line". Open topped with little armour they were not a substitute for light tanks, but were frequently deployed in that role, often with catastrophic results.

 

In other roles they were used as forward observation vehicles, radio vehicles and also flame throwers, as an observation tower with the addition of an elevation platform, it was known as the Praying Mantis. Stripped of its engine and internals it was known as a Gutted trailer and could carry two tons (usually fuel or ammo) when towed behind a REME tank.

 

Armoured against small arms fire only (5 to 12mm frontal armour ) they were also deployed in the recon role because of their speed (30mph)and low silhouette. They did however prove to be less successful as a towing tractor for artillery, as they lacked power and reliability in this role.

 

The concept remains is service to this day.

 

Karoshi

[LeeEnfield]

Jack,

A good idea of the universal/bren carrier when used for FOO use can be found in Peter Ryder's book, Guns Have Eyes.

 

This also contains a coulpe of pic's of destroyed ones, one by 88mm shell,.EEEKKKKK ! and one by mine.

If you can find a copy, well worth a read.

 

Andy

[Blackpowder44]

Re the bren carrier destroyed by an 88, An ex.4 Dorset carrier driver told me that when he was driving his carrier in Normandy he heard a sound like corrigated metal being rattled and at the same time there was a terrific lurch and a crash from his carrier. He bailed out into a ditch. On looking up he saw his mates jeep and trailor which was behind him smashed to pieces and his mate dead. It transpired that an88 AP round had gone through the front of the carrier on the passenger side, alongside the engine and out the rear and hit the jeep. He drove carriers right up till the wars end

[AlienFTM]

Busy reading "Only The Enemy In Front" a history of the Recce Corps 1941 - 1946. Prior to Dunkirk, recce was (as it had always been) the domain of the cavalry - converted to light tanks during the last days of peace and still receiving equipment and learning the trade in its new form throughout the Sitzkrieg.

 

As we know, the BEF got mauled and after Dunkirk everything had to start again. There were not enough tank regiments to crew the rapidly-expanding Royal Armoured Corps, so the cavalry regiments were all assigned to tanks. This left nobody to fill the Recce role. The Recce Corps therefore had to relearn everything from the bottom.

 

In fact it very quickly became another Royal Armoured Corps by another name as everything RAC was adopted because it was right. When the war ended and the army downsized again, it was impossible to retain all the pre-war regular cavalry regiments AND those of the Recce Corps, which was therefore disbanded entirely. ISTR that by the time they got round to awarding battle honours for this war, the Recce Corps was long gone and despite its valiant service throughout the war, it had no battle honours, becoming a forgotten bastard orphan.

 

Anyway, that's all by the by. Carriers were issued in large numbers to the Recce Corps (in the desert where I have read to so far, at least) and were extremely successful in the role, but everything all the previous posters have written is true.

[Snapper]

Carriers and tankettes were all pretty much of a much in terms of a 1930s penny pinching way of having some cheap armour. Look at the Renault UE and the little Fiat things rumbling around Absyssinia. Have seen a UE on one occasion and recently dealt with glass plates of the Italians in Abyssinia - never printed before. Classic moments.

 

They obviously worked though, however osbsolete or inadequate. Personally, I love them and enjoy seeing them at shows.

 

MB

[Degsy]

These pics from Normandy 2004,it was all a bit strange, 2 locals brought this carrier out from a half hidden shed and were, at first, happy to talk about it but when asked how they had acquired it they clammed up completely, jumped into the vehicle and departed at a rate of knots.Towed behind the carrier was a German A/T gun, 37mm I think.

At the time the opinion of several people who were there was that the vehicle was still in its original guise and was unrestored. Anybody care to comment?

[ArtistsRifles]

Whatever the story - that is a lovely looking example of one!!!!

[Degsy]

Yes, to my untutored eye it looked superb as if just out of the box, the photo's don't really do it full justice and it went like the proverbial off a shovel.

[REME 245]

No Carrier in theory would have been taken to Normady in that colour scheme so if nothing else it has had a repaint.

[Blackpowder44]

Take note of the date 1943 showing on the bulkhead. There is a famous picture of a Dorsets carrier with "jagged" black cammo.

[Blackpowder44]

Germans doing their bit for planet Earth, early re-cycling.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Blackpowder44

[ashley]

Germand doing their bit for planet Earth, early re-cycling.

 

nice picture, have seen it before . How young does the lad on the left look !

 

Those camo helmets are very nice indeed

 

Ashley

[XS650]

 

Can anyone tell me what exactly Bren Gun Carriers were for? My Grandfather always complained about them being next to useless for protecting the men in side of them, so this is telling that they were a front line vehicle, were they a small gun tractor?........

 

Catching up with old threads , I know 5 years later! but you often see this question asked , the purpose of carriers is in their name , to carry things . They were not designed to carry infantry but to carry their heavy equipment mortars , hmg's , brens , ammunition, rations etc right up to the front line. They were very successfull in this role as they were small , fast , very low profile and hard to hit , and could travel almost anywhere a foot soldier could. Problems came when they were used for other things they weren't designed for.

In fact I reckon the infantry would be able to use a carrier platoon on the front line in Afghanistan today!

Edited April 22, 2010 by XS650

[steveo578]

XS650

Catching up with old threads , I know 5 years later! but you often see this question asked , the purpose of carriers is in their name , to carry things . They were not designed to carry infantry but to carry their heavy equipment mortars , hmg's , brens , ammunition, rations etc right up to the front line.

 

 

Specifically the Bren Gun carrier "Carrier, Bren, No2 Mk1 & 2" was designed to carry platoon heavy weapons, that is Bren and Boys A/T rifle,at a scale of 10 per Battalion. The Bren No2 replaced the "Carrier,Machine Gun, No2, Mk1" which was originally designed to carry the Vickers Machine Gun (ie company level weapon).

 

As such the Bren never carried an infantry squad but would be used for flank protection and local recce. The similar Carrier,scout, Mk1 (the apparent difference between them was a mirror image rear superstructure), was intend to act as recce (scout) for mechanised cavalry units hence it was fittted with a W/T set from the outset. There was also a specific Carrier Armoured OP No1,Mk1 which in addition to the No11 W/T had various cable telephony and no facility for the M/G in the hull front.

 

As to carrying an infantry squad for mechanised warfare (the role of the Warrior in modern warfare) there was a Carrier Cavalry, Mk1 which carried a rifle squad into battle, only 50 were ordered and it is debatable whether all were completed, (there is a photo of it on the Dragon thread).

 

By 1940 it was realised that the luxury of having the Bren,Scout, OP and Cavalry along with various proposed Dragon prime mover replacement and other proposed uses, it was decided to build one standard model called the Universal Carrier.

 

The 3 inch mortar carrier did not exist until 1942 hence was never part of the official Bren No2 Mk1-2 set up. The MMG (Vickers) was re-introduced on the Universal as Carrier Medium Machine gun No1 in 1943.

 

Steve