fire extinguishers

[lozzaboy]

got these to old miltary army fire extinguishers, but not sure when one replaced the other, there is a date of 1981 on the back of the newer one but anyone know when they were introduced?

[fv1609]

I would say the change was 1963-64.

 

Hornets produced in 1962-3 had the old type but there were two Saracen EMERs issued in April & June 1964 that refer to "the new type of fire extinguisher".

 

The bracket you have for the newer one is an early one with the all metal clasp. This gave rise to problems in that it could be assembled incorrectly using excessive force & as a result the clasp could no longer be released by hand. An EMER was issued in 1969 that required a small rod to be brazed onto the hasp to prevent incorrect assembly.

 

 

This was overcome by the later bracket with a webbing pull to the hasp.

[lozzaboy]

wow didnt think it was back in the 60's, thought some time in the late 70's maybe but cheers for that mate, was debating (with myself lol) which one to fit in my 1961 rover 8 ffr so thinking the later one wouldnt look out of place now (being restored to its later service life with nato green outside and DBG inside)

[fv1609]

(being restored to its later service life with nato green outside and DBG inside)

 

Don't know the sort of years you were aiming for, but IRR NATO Green was not introduced until 1980 which is a lot later than one might imagine. Prior to this, for a camo paint it was Olive Drab.

[lozzaboy]

was aiming for around the early 70's, it left the army in 1972 and gained a k plate, dont think the green i'v used is too dark like the nato green on the wolfs at work, would you say its about right?

[ted angus]

Don't know the sort of years you were aiming for, but IRR NATO Green was not introduced until 1980 which is a lot later than one might imagine. Prior to this, for a camo paint it was Olive Drab.

 

Clive we started changing from CTC to BCF during my tour at Scampton 67-70. Irr Matt Green repaint commenced late 1974, I was at Marham at the time I had to plan with SNCO paintshop to get all GSE painted during its scheduled annual sevicing. We only had one paint bay, and the MT fleet repaint was dovetailed in as well. the plan went haywire in spring 75 when we received 30 AG70 TACR 1 fire truck it was finished in day glo fire orange. Strike Com instructed it had to go into IRR Mt Green before release to the fire section. It was a nightmare cutting back the dayglo to take dark admiralty grey under coat that the IRR Green needed. Everything also had to have a 4 " wide golden yellow around the vehicle/GSE at approx mid height which could not be applied until the IRR was fully cured. . It was late 77 when we first received the Vinyl stick on yellow strips to replace the painted bands. Initially the IRR Green programme was only applicable to Strike Command and RAF Germany units. As an aside it was never intended that the yellow band/stripe should be applied to vehicles remaining in RAF Blue/grey or GSE remaing in traffic blue BSC 169, as they should already have had yellow upper surfaces if operating on airfields. I moved to Bruggen in jan 1979 and at the time of my move both Marham and Bruggen had completed their repaint programmes.

 

 

TED

Edited June 30, 2010 by ted angus

[fv1609]

IRR NATO Green was not introduced until 1980 which is a lot later than one might imagine.

 

My reluctant conclusion that IRR NATO Green was introduced as late as that was based on the following:

 

DEFSTAN 00-23 covering the IRR requirements for painting military equipment was published in October 1980. This was Issue 1.

 

Materiel Regulations Army Code No.60503 (PAM 3) introduces the concept of using IRR NATO Green for the painting of vehicles & technical equipment & was published in Dec 1980.

 

NATO Green was only added as a British Standard Colour for " identification, coding and special purposes" in 1980 as BSC 285.

[ted angus]

Hi Clive, yes understand how you arrived at your dates but, as you are no doubt aware: often items and practises are introduced way ahead of the publication of policy documents. example : Gulf war one. we were instructed to paint certain items in the pink sand colour that was applied as ARTF to the Tornado GR1, buccaneer, Jag etc. and some in light stone. (of course we were to use Alkyd synthetic not ARTF), intially we received warnings by phone from our paint people at Wyton ( now known as the IPT) so we could take certain steps; then we got warning order signals, then action signals . The pink sand has never received a BSC and remained under its F.S. number. RAF APs relating to GSE & Mt were never amended to reflect the use of that colour, nor do I recall a DCI.

For gulf war 2 we put a lot of RAF vehicles into BSC 380 camo desert sand, by the time I was invalided in 2004 no RAF publication had been amended to reflect the intro of this colour.

I have numerous interesting modification leaflets (1950s & 60s) relating to crash tenders and I know from photographic evidence and vehicle/equipment record cards that again many of the mods were carried out using the draft leaflets so the Air publications, reflect a date that can lag by months if not years. Turning the clock back even further, it is repeatedly stated that the RAF started camo painting in early 1941 as this is the date of the earliest AMO that has been unearthed, but photographic evidence shows camo painted commence in advance of mobilisation.

I will delve into my discs and try and narrow down the CTC viz BCF ext date from photographs. re the intro into BS of BS 285, yes I don't recall ever seeing a BSC number when I was involved in the early days; in the reverse I believe it was in 1980 that traffic blue BSC 169 was deleted from the BS but we continues using it for several years after that date. Do you have copies of BS 381 you could share please Clive I have lots of notes but would appreciate anything between 1960 & 1980.

 

Regards TED

[fv1609]

Ted, yes I realise I should have really said that 1980 was the date that IRR NATO Green was officially accepted into general usage. You are right, obviously before this period it would be in use by some units before it could be accepted into general usage. Of course a key factor with paint is it ageing properties & I appreciate that would take time!

 

I understand what you mean with GW1 & GW2, There was no time for such niceities, techniques had to be made up as you went along & you had to get on with it quickly!

 

I have a COSA Sect H1(a) dated Nov.1980, this obviously lists IRR NATO Green. It would be nice to have some earlier editions to define the point when it became an item of supply. Although of course there would be a period before this when some units were using it prior to general acceptance.

 

Thinking to the stage before that, I have never found any documents to define when DBG was superseded by OD. I assume the precedance to this change would have been for ‘teeth units’. The earliest photographic sighting I have is probably 1968 with a Hornet of Para Sqn RAC painted OD with disruptive black. That would have certainly been a priority unit for the change.

 

As for BSC, the biggest change in the period you’re interested in was 1964 when the definition changed from “Colours for ready mixed paints” to “Colours for specific purposes” & these new colours were introduced:

 

 

109 Middle blue

111 Pale blue

112 Arctic blue

113 Deep saxe blue

210 Sky

228 Emerald green

310 Primrose (was 354)

366 Light beige

367 Manila

369 Biscuit

435 Camouflage red

436 Dark camouflage brown

437 Very dark drab

447 Salmon pink (was 443)

450 Dark earth

452 Dark crimson

453 Shell pink

592 International orange

636 PRU blue

637 Medium sea grey

638 Dark sea grey

639 Light slate grey

640 Extra dark sea grey

641 Dark green

642 Night

 

I think there were nearly as many deletions! So I’ll try to dig those out.

[ted angus]

can't help with DBG to OD, as RAF B/G was our standard pre IRR for MT and traffic blue BSC 169 for Ground support equipment. What I can tell you RAF Regt were still in standard colours pre IRR I don't recall an interim non IRR green /drab.

 

Off the top of my head most of those additions in 1964 were colours continueing in HM armed forces use that had peviosly been in the AM later MAP later AM/MoS standard this includes 109, 111, 210 450 and all the 600s in your list. 641 being wrongly grouped for many years until renumbered to 241. I thiink it was at this time that the surviving war emergency colours to BS 987c also came into BS 381 at this stage I think 436 was SCC 1A ?? and 437 was either SCC 15 or 16 ?? look forward to anyother additions/deletions

regards

TED

[fv1609]

641 being wrongly grouped for many years until renumbered to 241.

 

Yes Ted that seems an extraordinary error, that a green shade was given a grey prefix. Amazingly it wasn't corrected until 1988! Less obvious corrections at that time were:

 

360 became 460 Deep buff

368 became 568 Apricot

410 became 320 Light brown

437 became 337 Very dark drab

450 became 350 Dark earth

[ted angus]

Thanks Clive I found a site selling colour chip fans containing several BSs for paint. Unfortunately the price is beyond me, But I managed to download the BS 381 c component; It appears to contain every colour from 1948 to date ? obviously the colours are not true in the download but it will make a welcome addition to my files PM your e address and I will forward . I dare not put it on here for obvious reasons

 

regards TED

[fv1609]

Yes ok Ted that would be good to have thank you, then I'll see how it tallies with various lists I've accumulated & let you know. In the past I have been underwhelmed by the limited amount of web based info on BSCs.

[Sean N]

Thanks Clive I found a site selling colour chip fans containing several BSs for paint. ... I dare not put it on here for obvious reasons

 

regards TED

 

Ted, maybe the reasons aren't so obvious - why not?

 

You've pretty much found this already, but most paint / colour suppliers have chips and downloads available with BS 381 C, RAL and other colours, but often restricted to the colours they supply.

 

I've had colour charts from both Cromadex and Trimite FOC before now, but then I was using the paint.

[ted angus]

Ted, maybe the reasons aren't so obvious - why not?

 

You've pretty much found this already, but most paint / colour suppliers have chips and downloads available with BS 381 C, RAL and other colours, but often restricted to the colours they supply.

 

I've had colour charts from both Cromadex and Trimite FOC before now, but then I was using the paint.

 

Send me a PM and I will explian

 

TED

[lozzaboy]

sorry for not replying sooner, was enjoying what the thoughts on what the paint scheme should be, cheers for the help guys (seems its the wrong shade for the early 70's and wrong colour for a RAF Regt wagon, bugger lol :-) )