Abandoned Tank North York Moors

[Mantog]

Long shot really, but wondered if anyone could shed some light on something for me.

 

My dad recalls a tank 'dumped' on the North Yorks Moors (Google Maps 54.334368,-0.98701) during the war, to be used for training purposes. I think it got plastered by small arms and mortars on a regular basis! Post war, the remains of the tank were eventually taken away (or fell to bits/rotted away). There were still a few bits kicking around in the mid 80s and I brought home a chunk of armour plating. All rusted away now.

 

We're trying to work out what it was, I originally thought it might be a Vickers Light Tank, but other info suggests it might be an early Matilda?

 

Anyone know anything about it? A photo would be awesome!

[steveo578]

Mantog

...............We're trying to work out what it was, I originally thought it might be a Vickers Light Tank, but other info suggests it might be an early Matilda?

 

 

sorry I haven't any specific information regarding this, but I always like a "ghost tank" story I had a look at the area you posted as a grid ref and there is very little apparent on the good old google earth -although I think it hasn't been updated since first composed as it is a bit smuggy. There are many stories of random targets and abandoned tanks in the North East -indeed even further afield.

 

I'm very interested why you think Vickers light tank and then Matilda -by Matilda do you mean the A11 Matilda 1.

 

Steve

[Mantog]

sorry I haven't any specific information regarding this, but I always like a "ghost tank" story I had a look at the area you posted as a grid ref and there is very little apparent on the good old google earth -although I think it hasn't been updated since first composed as it is a bit smuggy. There are many stories of random targets and abandoned tanks in the North East -indeed even further afield.

 

I'm very interested why you think Vickers light tank and then Matilda -by Matilda do you mean the A11 Matilda 1.

 

Steve

 

Hi Steve

 

My dad described the tank as having a really short stubby barrel. I guessed it must be an obsolete model to be dumped on moor for training, and the Vickers Light Tank seemed a likely candidate. However, he recently spoke to a local old-timer who lived nearby and he said he thought it was a 'Matilda'. The Mk1 does have a very short stubby gun, was obsolete by end of 1940 and had rubber tyres which he also remebered the tank having

[steveo578]

Hi Mantog

 

that's very interesting -virtually every british tank had rubberised wheels, but it's very interesting that it could be a Matilda 1, You may be aware that a Matilda 1 was recovered from the Otterburn Training Area in the 1980s, so it is quite possible, although one thing is certain if would have to be removed as they were so tough it would not rot away, other than the stowage boxes.

 

I hope that some-one has futher information and photos -but its unlikely, for example I've been looking for a "tank" in Northumberland off and on for many years (actually it more a case of waiting for forestry to remove timber) - the story is in the late 1970s some-one unbolted the gun and took it home on his roof rack, much to the amusement of the locals as it bent a vee into the car -effectively writing it off, so I'm looking for a small tank with a 2pdr or smaller.

 

Steve

[Richard Farrant]

 

that's very interesting -virtually every british tank had rubberised wheels, but it's very interesting that it could be a Matilda 1, You may be aware that a Matilda 1 was recovered from the Otterburn Training Area in the 1980s,

 

 

 

At around the same time, I surveyed a Matilda 1 on Lydd Ranges, for the Tank Museum. This ties in with the Otterburn one and it was recovered, as Bob Grundy needed it for parts to restore one in running order for the museum. Unfortunately, they had both been facing the same way on the ranges, with running gear on same sides destroyed. It had been used on a PIAT range.

[Mantog]

I had absolutely no idea people were recovering Matilda Mk1s in the UK as late as the 1980s!! Makes you wonder what else is out there!

I have a piece of armour plate from this tank in the back of my dad's garage...will have to get a photo, maybe it will help with i.d.

 

As an aside, we used to scour the surrounding area for interesting wartime relics. Found several spent mortar rounds, .303 cartridges...and even an unexploded 2 inch mortar bomb!

Edited April 29, 2010 by Mantog

[steveo578]

It was also a surprise how much of it was still on the range especialy as it was on a small arms range next to a Pract-A/T range that had been used for Charlie G.

 

It discovery and that of the Bovington Mk3 AVRE Churchill -which was nearby was down to the Range Officer at Otterburn at the time who was a really good bloke and determined that anything historical was looked at.

 

Perhaps Bob Grundy might make some recollections on the Matilda 1.

 

Years later when the Pract-AT range was being cleared I found this wreckage -normally I can ID stuff but this one is still unidentifed perhaps an early pig -ie Northern Ireland RUC type or perhaps something earlier like a Morris Recce or a home guard extemporisation.

 

Steve

Edited May 1, 2010 by steveo578

[steveo578]

Mantog

I have a piece of armour plate from this tank in the back of my dad's garage...will have to get a photo, maybe it will help with i.d

 

 

Measurements of the plate especialy the thickness would also be useful.

[Bob Grundy]

As to request in Post 7; This is the A11 Infantry Tank Mk1 Matilda 1 after it had been extracted from its

resting place on the range at Otterburn. The date is June 1988. After 5 years work the tank was in

a restored running condition, it is part of the running fleet at Bovington.

[AndyFowler]

Blimey ! Well done to the chaps at the Tank Museum !:clap::clap::clap:

[Bob Grundy]

Andy

Well done to the chaps at The Tank Museum ?

As much as I like them they did nothing at all, it was myself and a brave band of helpers who did

the restoration.

[AndyFowler]

Sorry Bob ! Well done to you and your team mates ! She's a credit to you !

[steveo578]

Bob Grundy

As to request in Post 7;

 

 

Bob

Thanks for posting that-really nice pic.

 

Steve

[Mantog]

Right folks, have returned from dad's with said piece of armour. I can't believe I carried this off the moor as a lad, it weighs a bloody ton! Interestingly, it's been hit by some sort of projectile at some point, hopefully you can see it in the pictures. There's a slight indent on one side and on other side the metal has bulged out and partially come away (dead centre). There also a more severe impact on the bottom edge

 

 

Does this look like armour plate of a Matilda Mk1 ?

[Adrian Barrell]

It looks like a cupola hatch to me so could well be a Matilda 1 turret hatch.

[steveo578]

Adrian Barrell and Mantog

 

Hi both,

 

It's probably not Matilda 1 unless there were more than one type of Matilda 1 turret hatch which is possible although the A11 production was small (139) it did have variations in styles and sizes of engine deck doors. I haven't been able to find a photo of the prototype turret roof- which may be possible.

 

The Matilda 1 had a 3 piece roof (not dis-similar to the Valentine 3- also Vickers) the forward section fixed with a periscope and two quadrant sections with a single hinge on each -if the gun is 12 o'clock the hinges were at 4 and 8 oclock (I haven't got a scanner on today so description is the best I can manage).

 

It could be the rear most engine deck cover -the size is right but I sure this hatch was a simple rectangle.

 

I've looked at a wider range of tanks such as the Lt Tanks MkV and VI and the nearest in both shape and fittings but seems too large, is a Churchill Mk1 -which of course was a standard hatch-cupola for many wartime types. I give it further thought- sorry I can't be more specific.

 

Steve

Edited May 11, 2010 by steveo578

[Mantog]

Thanks guys

 

Does the armour thickness provide any clues? It seems fairly substantial!

[steveo578]

Further to my previous post (scanner now working) to photos of an A24 Cavalier commanders hatch note similarity to that published by Mantog except for locking bolt on extreme left.

 

Drawing (A J North Bellona publication 1968) showing Matilda 1 roof.

 

It would be perfectly possible for a Churchill 1 or 2 turret to be placed along side the A11 on a firing range -there were a lot of spare Mk1-2 turrets when Churchill rebuilds started although 200 or so were mothballed against future use- originally for Matilda Mk2 A12 and later for the Coventry Armoured Car (1943-44). I doubt a complete Churchill Mk1-2 would have been there I think it might have been noticed-but nothing is impossible.

 

It would be interesting historically to know what the firing range in question was, regular forces training , home guard or other, there is very little information about the training areas in WW2.

 

Mantog

 

Again the thickness about 18mm tends to point toward Churchill Mk1-2, it all adds to the mystery which is the "joy" of researching. Incidently the damage is probably a mortar bomb rather than anything like a PIAT or Boys A/T rifle, a PIAT would burn a hole a Boys would leave a bullet scoop in the "hit" side, although it could be a Northover projector or a Smith gun at a stretch.

 

Steve

Edited May 11, 2010 by steveo578
addition

[Adrian Barrell]

The hatch in Mantogs picture is the hatch you close first, note the grooved rebate for the other door to fit onto so it would not have had the locking catch. I still think it is a cupola hatch.

[Mantog]

Thanks for your efforts Steve. The hatch on that A24 is very similar apart from, as you say, lack of locking bolt. Was this type of cupola hatch used on other tanks?

There was almost certainly only one tank in this location. I'm also fairly certain it wasn't a Churchill. My dad's clearest memory (bearing in mind he was only about 4 or 5 years old at the time lol) is of a really short stubby gun barrel.

That area of the moors seems to have been used by the regular army, rather than home guard. There was quite a lot of Universal Carrier activity, track marks still evident when they burnt the heather off about 20 years later! Have also found remains of 2 inch mortars, spent .303 rounds etc.

Amusingly, at end of war a soldier told him and his sister they could have the tank, so they headed off home to return with a very tired horse, with a view to pulling it off the moor. I guess at that point someone must've pointed out the futility of trying haha

 

Just looked at pics again. The hatch in that photo looks fairly straight, whereas mine has a definite angle to it. Hmmm....

Edited May 11, 2010 by Mantog

[steveo578]

Hi Mantog

 

This type of hatch and its variants was fitted to a fair number of tanks in WW2, I didn't have a suitable photo of one from an early Churchill -most photos I have show the later All Round Vision cupola No1 Mk1-2 (sometimes called a ARV cupola just to confuse people) Similar hatches were fitted to A22 Churchill all marks to Mk7, A24 Cavalier, A27L Centaur, A27M Cromwell and A30 Challenger. The only thing I'm not happy about is the width, but as I don't have one to measure I can't be sure it is not just memory makes things smaller, but I think the thickness of the plate and lack of locking bolt probably makes it a early Churchill hatch in my opinion.

 

I can discount anything earlier having this style of hatch -Matilda 2 (A12) had a more semi-circular style, none of the early cruisers or Valentines had anything similar, I've even looked at early Ram and Grant.

 

As you said there is no evidence of another complete tank there- and a Churchill is fairly bulky, however a turret is possible -as is the other alternative that a hatch was thrown into an empty engine bay on the Matilda prior to placement and was blown out, things like that can happen, although the damage on the plate does tend toward it being in the vertical position when it was hit, which would dislodge it one hit breaking each of the hinges in turn -the second hit blowing it off the tank and into the ground where you found it. It is common practice to put hatches in open position on targets to increase the target area.

 

I realy like the horse story,

 

I'm sure there will be more input, just sad that film and cameras were so rare in the 1940s-1950s.

 

Steve

[Adrian Barrell]

I've just measured mine, though the dimensions are a little approx as it's in a stillage and they were taken at arms length in the dark.......

 

21" Longest side.

19" Shortest side.

9" Wide

20mm Thick.

13 3/4" Hinge centres.

 

The thickness is standard roof and hatch thickness on British tanks of the time. The photo looks like 18mm but as this type of armour tends to corrode in flakes, that might explain it.

 

I think it fits the picture well and I still think it is a cupola door.

 

If it came off a tank with a stubby gun, could it have been a Centaur IV or Cromwell VI? Never seen one on a range but you never know....

[steveo578]

Adrian

 

Thanks for that, I thought it was a No1 mk1 commanders hatch just looked much bigger with the ruler. The idea of even a comparatively early Centaur IV would be unlikely -especially as the 95mm how. would have been salvaged prior to placement, the number manufactured pieces being fairly critical, unless the vehicle had been completely burned out.

 

Of course as a single vehicle on the site a Centaur/Cromwell would fit the other requirement -a tank with rubber shod wheels which the Centaur would have and would be very apparent even to an untrained eye. By the same test would eliminate the other 95mm how alternative the Churchill V.

 

Of course another alternative could be a cut off gun.

 

Pity I liked to idea of a Matilda on the moors- I'm such a romantic:undecided:

Edited May 11, 2010 by steveo578
grammar

[steveo578]

Adrian Barrell

The hatch in Mantogs picture is the hatch you close first, note the grooved rebate for the other door to fit onto so it would not have had the locking catch. I still think it is a cupola hatch.

 

 

Hi Adrian notice that the photos of the A24 hatch has both the grooved rebate and has the bolt I mentioned which allows locking of the lid from the outside.

 

A photo of a churchill roof showing the hatch which seems to lack the recessed bolt. However the Churchill 3 photo article in Armour in Focus shows the roof of the Aberdeen exhibit, the hatch has a bolt head however with a cover plate welded over it. But the APG Churchill 3 is probably contemporary with the A24 shown.

 

Steve