question RAF vehicles camo & markings in North Africa (WWII)

[Fabio]

Hi,

I've just joined the forum (this is my introductory post) and I come up with the first questions:

 

• is it plausible that RAF vehicles used in North Africa were painted in blue?
• in the case of a 15 CWT (CMP) where was most likely that the roundel was positioned? On the front fender (or mudguard)? On the left door?
• the registration number always started with RAF?
• the positioning of that number (always on a 15 CWT) was more likely to be on the cabin doors on the front bumper?

 

I've found on the forum a very interesting document about the camo of these vehicles, but unfortunately is dated 31/12/1942, and I'm interested mainly in 1941-42.

Thanks in advance for your help

Ciao

Fabio

 

(Ciao means Hi )

[Tony B]

Hi and welcome, do some searching about, there are several photos of RAF vehicles on the forum.

[No Signals]

Hi,

 

 

 

I've just joined the forum (this is my introductory post) and I come up with the first questions:

 

• is it plausible that RAF vehicles used in North Africa were painted in blue?

• in the case of a 15 CWT (CMP) where was most likely that the roundel was positioned? On the front fender (or mudguard)? On the left door?

• the registration number always started with RAF?

• the positioning of that number (always on a 15 CWT) was more likely to be on the cabin doors on the front bumper?

I've found on the forum a very interesting document about the camo of these vehicles, but unfortunately is dated 31/12/1942, and I'm interested mainly in 1941-42.

Thanks in advance for your help

Ciao

Fabio

 

(Ciao means Hi )

 

Hi Fabio, and welcome to the forum

 

We have some very well informed members on here regarding RAF vehicles but here is my two pennuth.

 

1) I would have thought it unlikely that any RAF vehicles that found their way to N Africa were left blue, but if anyone has pics to the contrary lets have a look please! Desert Light stone in my book.

2) The roundel and the unit marking would be on the right mudguard/fender as viewed from the front, all to do with traffic control in foreign parts I believe. Drivers left side.

3) RAF vehicle registrations from that period began with 'RAF'

4) AMO's say one thing regarding their position but often the guys painting them on took a practical approach and put them where they were going to be seen easiest. You can see pics from the time with them on the bumper, the doors or even the bonnet sides if applicable. Bumpers do tend to find favour from my observations of RAF vehicles, but others may see it differently.

[Fabio]

Thanks a lot for your answers. I went through various posts on the forum and the various pics attached to them and I've noticed, specially on the Bedford trucks a quite dark base colour I thought it was blue. About the roundels from the pics I've found it seems to me that looking at the front of the vehichles it is on the left side (that on the CMP 15 CWT is the driver side).

Ciao

Fabio

[ted angus]

Hi,

 

 

 

I've just joined the forum (this is my introductory post) and I come up with the first questions:

 

• is it plausible that RAF vehicles used in North Africa were painted in blue?

• in the case of a 15 CWT (CMP) where was most likely that the roundel was positioned? On the front fender (or mudguard)? On the left door?

• the registration number always started with RAF?

• the positioning of that number (always on a 15 CWT) was more likely to be on the cabin doors on the front bumper?

I've found on the forum a very interesting document about the camo of these vehicles, but unfortunately is dated 31/12/1942, and I'm interested mainly in 1941-42.

Thanks in advance for your help

Ciao

Fabio

 

(Ciao means Hi )

 

Fabio, The bulk of RAF vehicles in N Africa were supplied directly from Commonwealth ( and later US) countries and not via the UK. documents in TNA Kew reveal the RAF and Army were working with the RAE boffins at Farnborough from 1936 on various cam schemes to suit various overseas theatres of operation. In 1937 the colour for Iraq was notified as Khaki ???? But to what spec isn't mentioned , there certainly wasn't a Khaki in the BS spec- it may well have been simply to an Air Ministry spec or it may have been the colour we know as Khaki Green No 3.

By the outbreak of war The RAF adopted the same colours as the Army had adopted for Egypt etc which was Dark Sand ??? and Middle Stone BSC 62) in a cam pattern to MTP 20. . This was later (early 1941) replaced by Lt Stone (BSC 61) as a base colour with Silver Grey (BSC 28 ) and Slate (BSC 34) as the disruptive colours, although photo evidence suggests most RAF vehicles were just in the base colour. There is no reference for the dark sand but a CWD spec is mentioned in Kew documents- this might stand for Camouflage Warfare Dept ???

re registration: both RAF and Army vehicles in Egypt carried a WD number normaly in english and arabic.

This was totally seperate and different to the normal Army reg eg L 123456 and to the RAF 12345 ( from april 1941) The WD number was normally on the bumper in black on a white background. looking from the drivers seat, in english on the right and arabic on the left. As time progressed the RAF number gradually took over and the WD number disappeared outside Egypt. Some RAF vehicles ran well into the war on Army nunbers as they had come from Army stock and a replacement RAF number hadn't been issued.

 

pre april 1941 RAF vehicles had RAF stencilled on each cab door or on a suitable place on the body, this was a variation of the UK scheme which employed screw on metal letters. In N africa the RAF was normally in black as opposed to white in UK.

There were 2 types of roundals the First was a large air recognition roundel painted on the bonnet or roof , it had either a white or yellow outer circle. These roundels were to be as large as possible.

Then came the 9inch roundel from august 1941. looking from the drivers seat; in the UK it was to be on the right side so police etc controlling traffic could see it. Overseas it varied depending which side of the road the traffic was driving, however evidence is that marking of vehicles overseas was far more relaxed than in UK.

The dark base colour you refer to on Bedfords may well have been KG no 3 or RAF blue grey, as they had come from UK, but your CMP would have alomost certainly been directly delivered.

The problem with this type of thing for overseas is - as soon as you work out a timeline you find evidence which muddies the water, as regulations for overseas commands were rarely published in AMOs and the relevant documents to build a full and accurate picture are no doubt long gone. .

Overseas, units/sqns normally put an ident marking on the cab doors. For Flying sqns they applied 2 letters, these were the pair of identifying letters issued to that sqn that you commonly see on aircraft. for other units such as MT companies a locally authorised badge.

TED

Edited March 26, 2010 by ted angus

[Fabio]

Thank you very much Ted!!!

Ciao

Fabio

[redironbark]

Ted,

 

The painting of British Army AFV in the Middle-East in the inter-war period followed General Orders (G.O.). The orders that I have found so far are:

 

G.O. 73, 1936: Vehicles given rough finish by application of varnish sprinkled with sand. Then when varnish dry, camouflaged painted with Light Sand and Dark Sand paint.

 

G.O. 185, 1936: Sprinkled sand over varnish cancelled. Paint only used. Colours remained Light Sand/Dark Sand.

 

G.O. 40, January 1937: All R.A.O.C and R.A.S.C vehicles painted when they required painting in Light Sand/Dark Sand paint.

 

G.O. 13, 1938: Middle Stone replaced Light Sand. Camouflage colours then Middle-Stone/Dark Sand.

 

G.0. 270, November 1940: Middle Stone/Dark Sand continued as camouflage colours but pattern changed to regular sloping bands with width 3" -12" with average being 12".

 

Regards,

Mark Mackenzie

Edited October 17, 2010 by redironbark