R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 To start with in artillery circles there is the term mils what does this refer to ? My M2-A1 105 Howitzer has an M12-A2 panoramic telescope and through it I can see a grid with numbers across and up and down, below is a pic of what you can see through it. What is the purpose of this panoramic telescope how is it used ? On the other side is an elbow telescope M16 what is this one for ? also by this there is a range quadrant M4 what does this do ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Richard, you need a copy of TM9-325, it answers all your questions in great detail, too long to post here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 Do you have one of them ? In having a bit of a dig around on the net I have found another TM manual I think but not too sure if it what I am after, TM9-1551 do you know this one ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I have TM9-325, '105mm Howitzer M2A1 carriages M2A1 and M2A2 and combat vehicle mount M4 and M4A1' dated May 1948. It covers the towed piece and the gun mounted in M7 Priest together with all accesories including ammunition. I do not have TM9-1551 but that covers all the mounts and sights seperately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) Right do you know how different your TM9-325 is to the TM9-1325 as I have this one dated Sept 1944 covers the same except says vehicle mount M3 and M4 , what would be the difference between the two ? Edited March 17, 2010 by R Cubed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fesm_ndt Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Mils .... the military dont use degrees on cmpasses as there is only 360 of them "Most military forces have adopted the French "millieme" system. This is an approximation of a milli-radian (6283 per circle), in which the compass dial is spaced into 6400 units (Sweden uses 6300 ) or "mils" for additional precision when measuring angles, laying artillery, etc. The value to the military is that one mil subtends approximately one metre at a distance of one kilometer" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Right do you know how different your TM9-325 is to the TM9-1325 as I have this one dated Sept 1944 covers the same except says vehicle mount M3 and M4 , what would be the difference between the two ? In short, no! However, the US TM system normally had an overall manual such as TM9-786, M5 High Speed Tractor which was then supported by more detailed sub manuals such as TM9-1786A and TM9-1786B etc. From this, I would have assumed that TM9-1325 is a more detailed manual but only covering certain elements of either the piece or the mount. However, in this case it seems to just be an earlier edition so a degree of renumbering presumably went on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Cubeness have a look down this list - http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7903-WW2-Manuals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Cubeness have a look down this list - http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7903-WW2-Manuals Different beastie Jack, that's the 105mm M3, that 1 makes all the difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Different beastie Jack, that's the 105mm M3, that 1 makes all the difference! Thats it - I am going home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) R Cubed .............except says vehicle mount M3 and M4 , what would be the difference between the two ? Mount M4 is the designation for the mounting in M7 and M7B1/2 SPH, what M3 is I don't know I can only speculate that it is a pre-emptive designation for Mount T2 (Substitute/limited Standard designation) which was the mount for the M2A1 howitzer in the T19 SPH Halftrack. Sometimes in manuals the expected standardised designation is used -the most blatent example of this was the T17E1 Staghound Armoured Car where VRNs were marked as M6 in anticipation of full standardisation. Similarly the M37 full tracked howitzer was an M4 howitzer on Mount M5 formerly T14 Although the M37 (105mm How on Chaffee tank) and the T19 were similar in production run, the M37 was otherwise classed as satisfactory for future production whereas the T19 were only ever an emergency conversion. Steve Edited March 17, 2010 by steveo578 error t15 should be T14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) Well there you go Jack, that's put you in your place, see what happens when you don't have a man's truck you just loose the plot... Thanks for the suggestions yep the M3 is a totally different Howitzer. Edited March 17, 2010 by R Cubed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 Mount M4 is the designation for the mounting in M7 and M7B1/2 SPH, what M3 is I don't know I can only speculate that it is a pre-emptive designation for Mount T2 (Substitute/limited Standard designation) which was the mount for the M2A1 howitzer in the T19 SPH Halftrack. Sometimes in manuals the expected standardised designation is used -the most blatent example of this was the T17E1 Staghound Armoured Car where VRNs were marked as M6 in anticipation of full standardisation. Similarly the M37 full tracked howitzer was an M4 howitzer on Mount M5 formerly T14 Although the M37 (105mm How on Chaffee tank) and the T19 were similar in production run, the M37 was otherwise classed as satisfactory for future production whereas the T19 were only ever an emergency conversion. Steve Lots of numbers in this post.. In reading the manual I have, it says: That the M3 mount with M2A1 Howitzer is mounted in motor carriage T19. Where the M4 mount with M2A1 Howitzer is mounted in motor carriage M7 and M7B1. It goes on to say the sighting and fire controls are different on the M3 and M4 as compared to carriage M2A1 and M2A2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Well there you go Jack, that's put you in your place, see what happens when you don't have a man's truck you just loose the plot... Thanks for the suggestions yep the M3 is a totally different Howitzer. Oi mister - I may well be driving a Mack in the summer.......... A REAL MANS TRUCK:pfrt::pfrt::pfrt::pfrt: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 :rotfl:Cool, I am not worthy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 :rotfl:Cool, I am not worthy... Good about time I got some respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 R Cubed It goes on to say the sighting and fire controls are different on the M3 and M4 as compared to carriage M2A1 and M2A2. I think most of the differences will be details only -for example different reticules due to lower elevation limits of both T2 and M4 mount which were both -5 to +35 degrees. According to the numbers I have, both had the same basic sights M16 elbow direct sight telescope and M12A2 panoramic telescope, range quadrant M4 and gunners quadrant M1- as on the towed weapons, although the mounts may be different I only have located M21 for the M12A2 telescope on the M7-M7B1. From what can be gauged from photos the SPH and the towed mounts have similar arrangements of elvation traverse balance controls and crew dispositions, albeit rather cramped in the SPHs. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 All very interesting, would you have any pics of these scopes such as the M16 and the M4 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Oi mister - I may well be driving a Mack in the summer.......... A REAL MANS TRUCK:pfrt::pfrt::pfrt::pfrt: Thats as maybe.......but whose Mack:cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Stock photo from Sherman by Hunnicutt M7 1st AD in Italy 29-8-44. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Good about time I got some respect. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Oi mister - I may well be driving a Mack in the summer.......... A REAL MANS TRUCK:pfrt::pfrt::pfrt::pfrt: Are you sure you won't just be asked to ''go and get a big mac''? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 All very interesting, would you have any pics of these scopes such as the M16 and the M4 range. I have in my manual, I'll scan and post shortly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 All self explanatory, sorry about the quality, I didn't want to damage the spine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Are you sure you won't just be asked to ''go and get a big mac''? "and dont forget the fries!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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